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This is my 'go to' question for everyone when we're discussing this topic. Why did Luke fail in the cave?

Well, I have to claim a small cheat for this one, because I'm influenced by the novel and by the NPR radio drama.

So here's my take: Luke failed the cave test before he even went in the cave. Yoda was telling him to be calm, at peace, PASSIVE. Luke went in with fear and aggression at least. The vision showed Luke that he was his own worst enemy. (NPR: "My enemy's face is my own.") He has to defeat his aggressive tendencies or he will fall. Walking in there with weapons (after being coached not to take them) is aggressive.
 
Well, I have to claim a small cheat for this one, because I'm influenced by the novel and by the NPR radio drama.

So here's my take: Luke failed the cave test before he even went in the cave. Yoda was telling him to be calm, at peace, PASSIVE. Luke went in with fear and aggression at least. The vision showed Luke that he was his own worst enemy. (NPR: "My enemy's face is my own.") He has to defeat his aggressive tendencies or he will fall. Walking in there with weapons (after being coached not to take them) is aggressive.

That's a good in-universe explanation.

I guess this is the bone I'm picking:
IMO Luke's lack of emotional control was the worst issue, more than aggressiveness. You literally cannot defend yourself if you have zero aggressiveness. You cannot make smart business deals or personal decisions. Not having a drop of aggressiveness in your body is internet-meme philosophy. It's a bad way to go through real life.

I'll buy that Luke had too much aggressiveness for a Jedi in ANH/ESB. And those negative emotions would carry a disproportionate danger for him because there are Sith lords trying to seduce him.

IMO Jedis probably needed to hold down their aggressiveness/anger/etc more than a normal person. They don't have the luxury of just a normal light/dark balance because the Force gives them so much extra leverage any way they start leaning. Superman is not allowed to lose his temper once in a while like the rest of us are.
 
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I guess you could almost kind of put it that way indirectly. But no, the Force does not fly their ship. But It does help them fly their ship BETTER by increasing their natural abilities: instincts, intuition, reflexes, and prediction. The Force can't make someone into a pilot who isn't already. (I'm looking at you, Rey!) Of course the Jedi uses the Force while flying (not for flying), just like they should use the Force any time they might have a need.

In the case of Luke and the Death Star, no, the Force was not flying, Luke was. But he was flying "blind", similar to the way he was blind going against the remote on the Falcon. By reaching out with his feelings, he "could almost see the remote", and "almost see the exhaust port". Instruments can cause us second-guess ourselves during crunch time, so Luke turning off his targeting computer helped him focus.
While I agree with the first part, I kind of disagree with the second. The jedi arnt terrible pilots since in now legends, the jedi did have their own starfighter squadron. I believe its shown at in addition to slight foreshadowing, the force amplifies all general abilities such as speed and reaction (hence why Qui Gon was also able to easily catch Jar Jar's tongue when he went for the second apple). There are cases where jedi fly ships but have been able to even defeat enemy ships by careful maneuvering and getting enemies to shoot each other so the jedi themselves are also good pilots. Anakin is just even more superior due to his stronger connection to the force and possibility due to his affinity to technology.

Just saw these & wanted to share, especially with Halliwax! ;)

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I mean what Star Wars fan wouldnt be interested in a twilek? The Lucas propaganda did a good job lol.
 
re: The Jedi as a "flawed institution"...
Are we ever going to see a story during a period it was actually working well? They must've gotten it right at some point during a thousand generations.

Define "working well".

In the PT the Jedi were working fine as an organization right up until they weren't.

Becoming a big organization has downsides for any group. That includes organized religions. IMO the purest-faith or "most powerful" Jedi were probably not the best team players with the Jedi Order. Either living before the Jedi became a big organization, or maybe just being outsiders to it. Qui-Gon was protrayed as a very admirable Jedi but also a bit of a maverick.

I'm overcomplicating your question though.

It would be interesting to see what Lucas would have done with Jedis in a show that took place centuries before the PT/OT.
 
re: The Jedi as a "flawed institution"...
Are we ever going to see a story during a period it was actually working well? They must've gotten it right at some point during a thousand generations.
Agreed. They weren't quite the noble warrior monks I pictured based on the description from ANH. Guinness really sold the idea with his portrayal of Obi-Wan and the way he delivered those expositions.
 
re: The Jedi as a "flawed institution"...
Are we ever going to see a story during a period it was actually working well? They must've gotten it right at some point during a thousand generations.
According to George, that is the Prequels. Specifically, Episode I. Taken from Reddit


"I know that Lucas sometimes does something akin to headcanoning of his own former intentions. That qalification said, I've never seen anything in his work to suggest that a major plot point of the PT is the failings of the Jedi order. In the PT archives book, he says things like this."
"This [the Prequel era] is the golden age of the Jedi" p. 335
"They [the Jedi] are the most moral of anybody in the galaxy." p. 441
"They [the Jedi] have good intentions but they have been manipulated, that was their downfall." p. 148
 
From what I've heard of the Acolyte's treatment of the Jedi (I didn't watch it), it sounds like they treat the Jedi like they're the bad guys. The Jedi were deeply flawed, but Lucas did say at the time of the Prequels they are still the most wise and moral people in the galaxy. They just got complacent and too reliant on Jedi dogma. They were getting more concerned with following their rules than doing their mission. To some extent any way. From Yoda's comments in AOTC, some of the Jedi were buying too much into their legend and becoming full of themselves instead of being selfless.
 
A pro athlete might score the most goals when they are mid 20s. But their popularity, merchandising, earnings will all be peaking in the next few years after that.

The peak of George Lucas's power & respect & money-making was the 1980s. But his creative prime was the 1970s when he was struggling to get funding.

The USA's economic & political & military power have all been at peak for the last 70-80 years. Is this the USA's peak period? Real wages have been dropping for 50 years. Nobody seems happy about our condition or direction. When people mythologize/idealize America they usually imagine earlier periods.


Define what we mean by "peak era" for the Jedi.

The height of the organization's size & power in the galaxy may have been the PT.

But their Force powers, religious principles, functioning as a group, etc? Those may have peaked earlier.
 
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A pro athlete might score the most goals when they are mid 20s. But their popularity, merchandising, earnings will all be peaking in the next few years after that.

The peak of George Lucas's power & respect & money-making was the 1980s. But his creative prime was the 1970s when he was struggling to get funding.

The USA's economic & political & military power have all been at peak for the last 70-80 years. Is this the USA's peak period? Real wages have been dropping for 50 years. Nobody seems happy about our condition or direction. When people mythologize/idealize America they usually imagine earlier periods.


Define what we mean by "peak era" for the Jedi.

The height of the organization's size & power in the galaxy may have been the PT.

But their Force powers, religious principles, functioning as a group, etc? Those may have peaked earlier.
Thats a good point although they may have only yet begun to peak like the GOLDEN GOD!!! (IASIP reference).

I believe Lucas stated that the Jedi were at their strongest in terms of societal impact and relevance in PT given their role as peace keepers and basically the police force of the galaxy but I think we can assume that in terms of power and strength in the force, it may have peaked earlier (although Luke in EU brings in a new golden age).

It was the past jedi that "eradicated" the Sith, or at least demolished them to the point that they had to go into hiding and rely on the rule of two to survive. It was also the jedi of the past that made the prophecy of the one who will bring balance, apparently had foresight and could advise the senate, etc. Although the Jedi in PT seem comfortable and arnt actively seeking the one to bring balance, they werent turning Anakin away either so the jedi in PT was pretty comfortable.

I do think one reason why everyone was excited about a sequel trilogy and Luke though was because Luke was bringing a new Jedi order that would likely surpass the one we see in PT. This is a jedi order managed by a direct descendent of the One himself (Luke) with more enlightened teachings such as allowing love and more close relationships, the jedi themselves not being as dogmatic and more experimental with their weaponry (Luke uses his regular saber which can change lengths and a short saber in EU iirc) and likely more advanced force powers with Luke being the pioneer. It would have been a new peak in the strength of the jedi at least, until Disney ruined it all.

I think the only thing worse (and what they are likely planning with the Rey trilogy) would be for Rey to make that new Jedi Order become a reality to further justify why she is the best jedi.
 
Doesn't sound like the Jedi in their prime to me.
Again, George is specifically speaking of Episode I. Until the Jedi are forced into no win position by Palpatine.

The fall of the Jedi isn't the result of them straying from their moral path. (Like Dave would like us to believe.) At least not in George's view. The Jedi are unequivocally the good guys to him.
 
I think Luke failed in the cave because Lucas/Kurtz/Kershner wanted to foreshadow the movie's ending. It salted the idea of Luke's general failure and the plot twist.
His failure is letting his emotions control him. "Only that what you take with you." Is what Yoda tells Luke. And Luke goes in the cave with his weapons, his fear, and his anger. And not surprisingly, he finds a fight. He fails on multiple levels. One being he fought an illusion. Had he been in control of his emotions, and not the other way around, he would have realized what he was seeing was an illusion.

The Force-message of ANH was "trust your feelings, Luke". In ESB it became "You're too reckless. Get some control over your emotions" which is virtually the opposite. In ROTJ Luke finally had enough seasoning and balance between the two.

As I understand it, feelings and emotions aren't the same thing. And the Jedi have both. It's negative emotions that must be brought under control, lest they control you.

"The Sith practice the dark side and are way out of balance. The Jedi aren't as much out of balance because they're the light side of the Force. They still have the bad side of the Force in them, but they keep it in check. It's always there, so it can always erupt if you let your guard down." - George Lucas
I'm not arguing that Luke "knew better" than Yoda. I'm arguing that Yoda might have tailored & abridged his teachings to fit who Luke was, and to fit the battle that Luke was facing.

I'm saying the Jedi were not entirely right in the PT. I'm saying they weren't firing on all cylinders. That's why Palpatine was able to wipe them out. I'd rather assign the blame for at least some bit of that failure on them because there is some logic to it and suits the tragic nature of that trilogy.

Tragic stories are not about characters doing everything right and the sky falls on them anyway. That's sheer pathos. Tragedies are about characters making mistakes for understandable reasons. If Palpatine wiped out the whole Jedi order while they did everything right, then it's more like Dark Helmet saying "Evil will always triumph because good is dumb." There's no blaming that one on Anakin, he had barely even turned dark by then. Palpatine just whupped the Jedis in Ep#3. Either the Jedis did something wrong or else the whole entire religion was no match for one bad guy. (Weren't they highly-respected good guys?)
I mean that's fair interpretation. But just as long as you understand that it's at odds with George's view. George is pretty clear, the Jedi didn't do anything wrong. Morally that is.

And it was more than just one guy. It was thousand year long plan of the Sith to undermine the Sith and destroy the Jedi.

As for the severity of Yoda's mistakes, I'm open to negotiation.

But Yoda did make mistakes. He let Anakin be trained (against his own instincts) in Ep#1.
The council voted that Anakin should be trained.

He failed to sense Palpatine rising to power.
"Victory? Victory you say? Master Obi-Wan, not victory. The shroud of the dark side has fallen. Impossible to see, the future is." - Yoda

The Jedi cannot see through the fog of the dark side. It's of no fault of their own. They literally find themselves unable to tap into the Force the way they used to.

He failed to take out Dooku at the end of Ep#2.

Because Yoda showed compassion and caring, and saved Obi-Wan and Anakin.
He failed to defeat Palpatine in Ep#3.
Again, the dark side was at its strongest during Episode III. And the Jedi can longer use the Force like they could.
The PT Yoda was not the flawless sage we got in 1980-83. He was more 3-dimensional and fallible.
George would say otherwise.
It was necessary for the whole PT story to work. If Palpatine was the evil Joker of the PT then Yoda was the closest thing to Batman. If your tragic storyline is that the Joker takes over Gotham then you have to explain why Batman didn't stop him. Batman has to fail in some way. If Batman did everything right and the Joker still won then we're back to Dark Helmet pathos.
The Jedi may have made some tactical blunders. But what predicated their fall wasn't loss of their moral compass. Or hubris or some such garbage like Dave suggests. It's blatantly contrary to what George says.
 
I mean, I'm not trying to blame the Jedi for their PT downfall as if they deserved it. I look at them more like an aging sports team who had held the title for years. The PT was a playoff upset. The Jedi lost to a younger challenging Sith team with some new moves.

Yeah, the Jedi made mistakes in the PT (like a losing sports team). But it doesn't draw their good-guy status into question. Luke was making mistakes all the time in the OT.
 
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I mean, I'm not trying to blame the Jedi for their PT downfall as if they deserved it. I look at them more like an aging sports team who had held the title for years. The PT was a playoff upset. The Jedi lost to a younger challenging Sith team with some new moves.

Yeah, the Jedi made mistakes in the PT (like a losing sports team). But it doesn't draw their good-guy status into question. Luke was making mistakes all the time in the OT.
By the way, if you haven't, I highly recommend reading Jedi: Mace Windu. It offers one of, if not the best look at the Jedi and their relationship with the war. And bonus, George must have read it, and liked it, because he quotes the comic in Revenge of the Sith. Jedi: Mace Windu

I read it in Omnibus: Clone Wars Volume 1. But can found other places.(Might want to sail the high seas.) Probably best to find a digit copy, as print copies are expensive. Though Legends Epic Collection: The Clone Wars Volume 1 is supposed to be reprinted soon. Maybe next year I think.
 
Anyone keeping track of the rate of Star Wars projects announced by Disney that get completed versus canceled?

Too bad about Lando. Was quite looking forward to it since it was announced, especially with Glover, although that excitement certainly wained due to Boba, Kenobi, Acolyte, etc.
 
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