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Lets talk all things Star Wars
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HeartBlade
Sr Member
Star Wars tended to have some relatively classy one liners. My favorite was when Luke shot down the tie in ANH, cheers “I got one” and Han goes “dont get cocky.” Fits his character and ages well. Yo mamma jokes were “hip” in 2003 and ended the year after. It was honestly embarrassing.
The MCU doesnt really take itself too seriously which is why meta jokes work. Its supposedly set in “our” world but has literal gods fighting alongside a well trained gymnast and a guy using a bow in a world where guns exist, hence why Hawkeye pointing out he uses a bow and arrow works. They also only work in very small doses (like one every couple of movies).
Star Wars is set in its own world and is for all purposes a space epic. While there can be allegories to modern issues at the time (if you arnt with me, you are against me), they still need to fit the context of the story. I do think JJ did a decent job with TFA by making the dialogue and actors act like they were in “Star Wars” and I think Im also put off by TLJ by how “meta” the characters act (Luke drinking the milk with the smug smile, the moment of him throwing the lightsaber behind him like trash, Rey getting hit with the lightsaber with a bonk). These are “funny” moments in moments that should be serious.
IMO the joking thing is in the category along with "don't refer to earth measurements & materials."
Nobody in SW says "I'll be there in a minute" or "That costs a thousand dollars." What's a minute? What's a dollar?
SW stuff has to be really timeless. It should not reflect our culture any more than absolutely necessary.
Nobody in SW says "I'll be there in a minute" or "That costs a thousand dollars." What's a minute? What's a dollar?
SW stuff has to be really timeless. It should not reflect our culture any more than absolutely necessary.
HeartBlade
Sr Member
I really wonder how works like the MCU, the Boys, or even Star Wars ST will be looked upon a couple generations from now (maybe our grandkids or even great grandkids generation).
Referential humor is funny if you are in the know and makes you feel smart because you “get that reference” but if you aren’t, it’s just going to fall flat.
Of the 3 mentioned, the Boys and its spinoff has the most potential to age terribly (even though I personally enjoy it the most). Season 2 and 3 is chock full of references (the Pepsi commercial, celebrities singing believe during covid lockdown, the pandering) but I wouldn’t be surprised if these references fall completely flat for the next generation due to the “new” thing they are into. I do think this current “era” of superhero blockbusters is at its tail end and Hollywood is looking for the next trend (sci-fi, horror, video game adaptations, who knows) so the new viewers will be growing up in an entertainment cycle where superheroes aren’t everywhere and just won’t relate.
I do think the your momma joke was especially egregious given the fact that again, your momma jokes should have died back in the 2000s and it’s literally the “hello fellow kids” meme in quote format but I wonder if this current “meta” and “culture” humor a lot of movies like to employ will age really poorly in the future.
I do think that despite Lucas’ bad dialogue also giving unintentionally funny vibes with PT that are now memes, he did humor quite well with C-3PO. The slapstick with Jar Jar, not so much.
For better or worse fiction is a product of it's time. While The Boys may not have the same relevance in it's references in the years to come, the fact that it's satirical will likely be the thing that makes it rewatchable, even if the jokes or ideas may be offensive by future generations. That show in particular is also intentionally harsh with it's commentary because it uses extremes to comment on the brutality of human beings toward one another. Part of the joke is that the violence, graphic sex, racist ideas, vapid commercialism, and corruption of power are so over the top is because it's illustrating the moral decay of human beings, exposing their worst traits as cynically as possible and that below the shallow surface of "heroism" is in actuality, a cesspool of depravity. Right out of the gate that type of show is going to be divisive.
Social commentary can work in certain fiction but the narrative has to be structured in a way where the plot or characters reflect that theme. When you're dealing with timeless ideas about selflessness, sacrifice, friendship, justice, overthrowing corrupt leadership, etc, you're speaking to truths that everyone, in every time, in every part of the world can relate to. Which is why Disney/Lucasfilm having to brag about inclusion is laughable because Universalism is the name of the game here and everyone is welcome. No need to pat yourself on the back if you can manage to tell a story everyone can get behind. It speaks to everyone's commonality rather than our differences and it celebrates the values that have built civilizations. That's why the Star Wars films have endured for almost 50 years now and why the original films will always be relevant because the morals they espouse are ones any decent person can embrace.
Star Wars by contrast to something like The Boys is supposed to be timeless. George worked very hard to make sure every detail was a blend of modern (by 1970's standards) and old so that you didn't necessarily know when or where elements came from right away. It was a genius move by combining the familiar with new innovation that to this day still feels grounded yet inspired. He even went so far as to not allow certain design elements into the costumes because it would automatically date the story and his goal was to make something that would transcend 1977 and earth, and everything we knew about the world at that time.
Those types of ideas have long been abandoned by so many within Lucasfilm since the acquisition and they have this irritating habit of teaching morally bankrupt lessons to the audience. How many characters in these new stories have been selfish, reckless, arrogant, and have become cynical, or worse yet, completely apathetic, that they allow other characters to suffer for their inaction or indifference? Apathy is NOT a virtue. Selfishness is NOT a virtue. Carelessness, thoughtlessness, self-absorption, and greed are NOT virtues. I'm not suggesting that those characteristics don't belong in any story, but if we're talking universalism and heroism these things should be treated as flaws, not morals.
There is no heroism without sacrifice. Whether that means a character sacrifices/ risks their life, or they abandon their personal wants and needs to help save other people or for the greater good. It's true in fiction and it's true in life. That's why I cannot tolerate so much of new fiction because it's forgotten that ideal. A hero rises above their flaws, or fights through their personal and literal trials to OVERCOME evil, not submit to it. We need heroes now more than ever and I reject the idea of acclimating to selfishness above all else.
Social commentary can work in certain fiction but the narrative has to be structured in a way where the plot or characters reflect that theme. When you're dealing with timeless ideas about selflessness, sacrifice, friendship, justice, overthrowing corrupt leadership, etc, you're speaking to truths that everyone, in every time, in every part of the world can relate to. Which is why Disney/Lucasfilm having to brag about inclusion is laughable because Universalism is the name of the game here and everyone is welcome. No need to pat yourself on the back if you can manage to tell a story everyone can get behind. It speaks to everyone's commonality rather than our differences and it celebrates the values that have built civilizations. That's why the Star Wars films have endured for almost 50 years now and why the original films will always be relevant because the morals they espouse are ones any decent person can embrace.
Star Wars by contrast to something like The Boys is supposed to be timeless. George worked very hard to make sure every detail was a blend of modern (by 1970's standards) and old so that you didn't necessarily know when or where elements came from right away. It was a genius move by combining the familiar with new innovation that to this day still feels grounded yet inspired. He even went so far as to not allow certain design elements into the costumes because it would automatically date the story and his goal was to make something that would transcend 1977 and earth, and everything we knew about the world at that time.
Those types of ideas have long been abandoned by so many within Lucasfilm since the acquisition and they have this irritating habit of teaching morally bankrupt lessons to the audience. How many characters in these new stories have been selfish, reckless, arrogant, and have become cynical, or worse yet, completely apathetic, that they allow other characters to suffer for their inaction or indifference? Apathy is NOT a virtue. Selfishness is NOT a virtue. Carelessness, thoughtlessness, self-absorption, and greed are NOT virtues. I'm not suggesting that those characteristics don't belong in any story, but if we're talking universalism and heroism these things should be treated as flaws, not morals.
There is no heroism without sacrifice. Whether that means a character sacrifices/ risks their life, or they abandon their personal wants and needs to help save other people or for the greater good. It's true in fiction and it's true in life. That's why I cannot tolerate so much of new fiction because it's forgotten that ideal. A hero rises above their flaws, or fights through their personal and literal trials to OVERCOME evil, not submit to it. We need heroes now more than ever and I reject the idea of acclimating to selfishness above all else.
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Greenie
Sr Member
While I definitely agree with the absence of earthly reference, “ Approaching the planet Yavin. The moon with the rebel base will be in range in thirty minutes”
At some point, some particular future generation will find things from a previous one "offensive". It's pretty much a given. But some stuff has remained universally offensive for all generations: cowardice, greed and evil come to mind. With that in mind, when done as satire, it can and does expose human foibles and makes fun of the things that a materialistic society values.
Exactly. Those things are a common "currency" if you will, and it's why the old legends, fairy tales, stories we love and popular franchises had endured (as you mentioned in particular with Star Wars).
Right? He included enough of the familiar to make it relatable, but included enough new things to make it from a galaxy far, far away.
And that's the issue: those within not just Lucasfilms, but other franchises and studios as well are embracing morally bankrupt "lessons". And audiences out there have spoken clearly that they do not want these things shoved down their throats, but many in the film industry just aren't listening.
They treat these things as qualities to aspire to, not deficiencies to overcome.
As do I: generations change, but its' not always for the better. And several of the new generation of film makers have some very appalling "morals" that folks like you, I and a good percentage of fans and movie goers, do not want. Period.
Agreed, but I also think that Anthony Daniels did an AMAZING job delivering those lines and pantomime in the suit. He sold the character, 100% of the time.
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Taika Waititi was asked recently about his SW movie and he said something like "It will be a Taika Waititi movie. Surprise! It's gonna piss a lot of people off." Yes because that's what Star Wars really needs right now! Another movie that will piss off fans, further divide them, and provide Disney/Lucasfilm with yet another movie that will bomb at the box office! It's like they are actively trying to destroy the brand.
Solo4114
Master Member
Wait a second. I thought they already canceled that one?
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