The Ultimate Luke ANH Graflex Research & Discussion Thread

So here is a look at another photo taken at a different moment in the same setup as the previous "overlooking Mos Eisley" shot we've seen showing the infamous rivets on the ANH Graflex lightsaber, but this time with Luke's sleeve blocking the direct sunlight so there is less bloom/glare to grapple with. To me, this further cements the idea that all of the rivets are the same size (likely all the 3 mm size in all six locations) but perhaps roygilsing would like to do his magic with some overlays to see what can be gleaned with various combinations of rivet sizes! :)

1700072173659.png


1700071433502.png
 
So here is a look at another photo taken at a different moment in the same setup as the previous "overlooking Mos Eisley" shot we've seen showing the infamous rivets on the ANH Graflex lightsaber, but this time with Luke's sleeve blocking the direct sunlight so there is less bloom/glare to grapple with. To me, this further cements the idea that all of the rivets are the same size (likely all the 3 mm size in all six locations) but perhaps roygilsing would like to do his magic with some overlays to see what can be gleaned with various combinations of rivet sizes! :)

Thanks for sharing this picture! Never saw this one before. But I don't think I agree with you. I think the sizes are still different, even in this picture with less glare. I can do an overlay, when I find some time.
 
Thanks for posting Mike. This and other private ones also convinced me they are the same size. The locations of the side of the rivet, the hole, and the grip only seem to work with the larger size.
 
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Thanks Halliwax and yeah, sorry lol

On the rivets, its really cool seeing a new perspective. The center stems (that are cut off) appear not uniform either
 
It may be possible the rivets are the same size but here is a rough test I recently did:

86F9BD1B-38BB-4499-8DA8-2942550AD036.png


Straightened and using the curve of the clamp where they meet the grips and overlaying that just under the larger 3mm rivets seems to reveal the left side rivets are actually smaller.

We need to take this with a grain of salt and remember that this is not a good quality shot with the prop perpendicular to the camera. This is shot looking up at the hilt with lens distortion, shadows and lots of grain that all inhibit our ability to make a definite call IMHO.

Perhaps @roygilsing’s possible overlay on this image will help to clarify things.
 
Just do a simple comparison. If you use the small rivet, the rivet head and the width of the lower grip “shelf” are nearly identical in diameter (~4.9mm). The picture clearly shows the rivet is wider than the lower grip “shelf”.

Everyone can continue to use whichever rivets they want. I will just not be using the small ones because I‘ve never been able to reconcile the distances between the grips, the rivets, and the hole location under the grip using them. It simply doesn’t work.
 
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It is confusing. I think I see the upper right one is still scary close to the rim, making it a little tilted

This is still what I see
IMG_0574.jpeg
 
Apologies as I don’t want to derail the current topic, but I’ve been trying to find a similar thread as this one but related to the ESB version of the hilt. Does anyone know where I can find that thread if it exists?

I’ve tried searching several times and can’t quite find a true ESB exclusive thread for this.
 
Apologies as I don’t want to derail the current topic, but I’ve been trying to find a similar thread as this one but related to the ESB version of the hilt. Does anyone know where I can find that thread if it exists?

I’ve tried searching several times and can’t quite find a true ESB exclusive thread for this.
Here is a thread that is probably the most similar, at least from the more recent times: Ranch Saber Provenance
 
Swapped out RPK Customs’ aluminum rivet cap for his steel one, which is a better choice of material, and looks right. I gave it a shot of Barricade before installation to prevent rusting.

I tend to agree with the idea that, rather than being some obscure Graflex variant, the oversized rivet may well actually have been a nail or some other such fix for a broken lever pin, a la the nail used to hold the Vader ANH clamp together.

IMG_6435.jpeg



Meanwhile, I’ve casually been skimming through my references to refresh myself on the rivet debate. Roy’s comparison here still seems pretty spot-on.


IMG_2248.jpeg



Sure, rivets which were all the same size makes sense. But we have to remember that this is a detail which was clearly not intended to be seen, and so they may have just grabbed whatever was on hand, without worrying about aesthetics or symmetry. Rule Number One is “it only has to look good on camera”, after all.

This is also likely why the ESB grip screws were painted (?) black after they were initially installed on location in Norway. They were a quick fix for a problem (the grips falling off due to intense cold), and were never meant to be seen, nor were they originally a part of the prop’s design. Painting them black helped to HIDE them. Despite this, they became a notable part of the prop’s aesthetic and character.

On the flipside, the ANH mystery rivets are bizarre and ugly, and were clearly only added for practical reasons. I wouldn’t include them on an idealized/in-universe prop.
 
Let's dive again into the mystery around the lever and the rivet ...

There are 3 possible options (regular Inc.-style rivet, obscure version, repaired lever). I'd rate them from least probable to most probable like this:

1. Obscure variation with a factory installed bigger than "Inc."-style rivet.

After all these years that the entire community is chasing the perfect graflex flash - nobody has seen one. I'd agree that chance of this is very minimal.

2. Repaired Lever.

Now, I'm just kidding here, but only based on numbers - chance of fixed lever vs obscure variation is 50:50 - we've seen the same number of examples for both - 0. But that's not how it is in reality. The vintage levers do break and I personally broken two of them unfortunately. I guess less likely to happen when using the flash with a camera as there the parts are designed to fit well together, but when try to close the clamp with an oversized clamp card or bubbles sometimes it breaks. In both cases it was not the first time I tried to close the clamp but after I've taken apart the build for some reason and then tried to reassemble it.

I think I've seen at least 2 posts by other forum members - they were also broken the same way. Not the rivet, not the lever, but the screw part. Here's the last one that I broke, I tried to fix it somehow but it is still visible how the damage was done:

1702073606991.png


Something I could not have guessed looking from the outside, but turns out that loop is very thin and is the weakest point.
(That also makes the theory of the V2 lever being installed on a graflex screw because the original graflex lever broke quite unlikely in my opinion.) It is still a possibility is that corrosion in the lever weakens the rivet or the lever more than the other parts and it is the one that breaks, but based on the experience so far this looks less likely.

So if you fix the lever like this or if you just get some screw that fits (I think that's more likely, also looks like the lever is sometimes turned at an angle that you can't do with the original screw, unless the rectangle hole on the clamp bar is enlarged), cut it to size and drill a hole in it - next step will be to attach the lever. But the original rivet is still in there and you’ll have to remove it first. As you don't care to preserve the look, but just the functionality the easiest is to cut it in two, throw it away and use something like a nail in its place.

I think it is a realistic scenario, just not very probable because it is too much of a hassle to fix it that way.

I've seen several repaired clamps on ebay and they all have been repaired the same way - the lever was missing completely, and some sort of unmodified screw was in its place (so that you need a screwdriver to open and tighten the clamp). In one case the clamp bar was missing because they used a screw with a bigger thread size, so they had to put a matching nut on the other side.

Another very good example is the Ranch Saber - it is fixed exactly the same way like those I've seen on ebay , but on top of that I guess because they wanted to preserve the look - they found it easier to drill and tap a hole into the lever and the bar to put the lever back on the prop than trying to fix the whole thing with a nail.

3. Just a regular Inc.-style rivet.

Here are the highest resolutions of the toe pic that I could find in the forum. They are still very blurry, but especially on the lower side there's enough of the outline of the rivet visible that if you follow it and complete the circle it does not appear to me to be larger than a normal rivet:

1702063254616.png


I know there are other references where it looks somewhat bigger but they are also quite blurry and it could be due to highlights and the lever being slightly out of focus.

My own build is peacefully collecting dust on the shelf for a long time. If I move the focus point slightly off the lever - here's what I get:
1702063633398.png

Kind of looks like there's a huge rivet there. But it isn't
1702063753535.png


Here's another famous picture compared. First is kind of blurry and the rivet looks quite big. Second is a more sharp copy of the same (probably somebody sharpened it, but that's how I found it). There the shape of the rivet is just a little bit more defined and starts to look almost normal to me. Compare to few shots that are in and out of focus... even in the focused ones sometimes depending on the angle and light the rivet looks bigger than it should be and I think quite comparable in size to the hero picture:

1702065020094.png

(I painted the black rectangle to simulate the rust patch on the original as I wanted to showcase another interesting comparison, but ... while I was taking the pictures I forgot what it was :confused:)

Here's another set of the hero pictures mixed with mine:

1702065428374.png
 
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Let's dive again into the mystery around the lever and the rivet ...

There are 3 possible options (regular Inc.-style rivet, obscure version, repaired lever). I'd rate them from least probable to most probable like this:

1. Obscure variation with a factory installed bigger than "Inc."-style rivet.

After all these years that the entire community is chasing the perfect graflex flash - nobody has seen one. I'd agree that chance of this is very minimal.

2. Repaired Lever.

Now, I'm just kidding here, but only based on numbers - chance of fixed lever vs obscure variation is 50:50 - we've seen the same number of examples for both - 0. But that's not how it is in reality. The vintage levers do break and I personally broken two of them unfortunately. I guess less likely to happen when using the flash with a camera as there the parts are designed to fit well together, but when try to close the clamp with an oversized clamp card or bubbles sometimes it breaks. In both cases it was not the first time I tried to close the clamp but after I've taken apart the build for some reason and then tried to reassemble it.

I think I've seen at least 2 posts by other forum members and they all were broken the same way. Not the rivet, not the lever, but the screw part. Here's the last one that I broke, I tried to fix it somehow but it is still visible how the damage was done:

View attachment 1768304

Something I could not have guessed looking from the outside, but turns out that loop is very thin and is the weakest point.
(That also makes the theory of the V2 lever being installed on a graflex screw because the original graflex lever broke quite unlikely in my opinion.) It is still a possibility is that corrosion in the lever weakens the rivet or the lever more than the other parts and it is the one that breaks, but based on the experience so far this looks less likely.

So if you fix the lever like this or if you just get some screw that fits (I think that's more likely, also looks like the lever is sometimes turned at an angle that you can't do with the original screw, unless the rectangle hole on the clamp bar is enlarged), cut it to size and drill a hole in it - next step will be to attach the lever. But the original rivet is still in there and you’ll have to remove it first. As you don't care to preserve the look, but just the functionality the easiest is to cut it in two, throw it away and use something like a nail in its place.

I think it is a realistic scenario, just not very probable because it is too much of a hassle to fix it that way.

I've seen several repaired clamps on ebay and they all have been repaired the same way - the lever was missing completely, and some sort of unmodified screw was in its place (so that you need a screwdriver to open and tighten the clamp). In one case the clamp bar was missing because they used a screw with a bigger thread size, so they had to put a matching nut on the other side.

Another very good example is the Ranch Saber - it is fixed exactly the same way like those I've seen on ebay , but on top of that I guess because they wanted to preserve the look - they found it easier to drill and tap a hole into the lever and the bar to put the lever back on the prop than trying to fix the whole thing with a nail.

3. Just a regular Inc.-style rivet.

Here are the highest resolutions of the toe pic that I could find in the forum. They are still very blurry, but especially on the lower side there's enough of the outline of the rivet visible that if you follow it and complete the circle it does not appear to me to be larger than a normal rivet:

View attachment 1768265

I know there are other references where it looks somewhat bigger but they are also quite blurry and it could be due to highlights and the lever being slightly out of focus.

My own build is peacefully collecting dust on the shelf for a long time. If I move the focus point slightly off the lever - here's what I get:
View attachment 1768270
Kind of looks like there's a huge rivet there. But it isn't
View attachment 1768271

Here's another famous picture compared. First is kind of blurry and the rivet looks quite big. Second is a more sharp copy of the same (probably somebody sharpened it, but that's how I found it). There the shape of the rivet is just a little bit more defined and starts to look almost normal to me. Compare to few shots that are in and out of focus... even in the focused ones sometimes depending on the angle and light the rivet looks bigger than it should be and I think quite comparable in size to the hero picture:

View attachment 1768275
(I painted the black rectangle to simulate the rust patch on the original as I wanted to showcase another interesting comparison, but while I was taking the pictures I forgot what it was :confused:)

Here's another set of the hero pictures mixed with mine:

View attachment 1768277
Wicked detective work! One thing I’d like to share is, on some photos I have lost sleep over trying to figure out what is going on

Only to later find reference of the same photo with out the issue I was looking at, I then realize the issue I’ve been banging my head around this whole time was nothing more than a photograph flaw…

This has happened to me twice now, thinking there is a hole, or a chip.. only to find out it was some kind of photo glitch when a higher rez photo of the same photo became available
 
OR... your overlay reveals that the left side rivets are the same size, just located closer to the bottom of the Graflex than the right side rivets...
This is 101% not possible. We have very good references of the right side rivets which show the top left rivet is already located at the highest possible point, so much so it protrudes from the edge of the bottom. So even assuming rivets with the same dimensions at most they could be placed in the exact same point.. But this is not what it seems to me.
 

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This is 101% not possible. We have very good references of the left side rivets which show the top left rivet is already located at the highest possible point, so much so it protrudes from the edge of the bottom. So even assuming rivets with the same dimensions at most they could be placed in the exact same point.. But this is not what it seems to me.
101% is a pretty high amount of not possible-ness… Thankfully it is actually 102% possible, so we’re okay!

If the left side rivets overlap each other more, the lower rivet in the pair absolutely could be closer to the bottom of the Graflex than its corresponding rivet in the right side pair.
 
101% is a pretty high amount of not possible-ness… Thankfully it is actually 102% possible, so we’re okay!

If the left side rivets overlap each other more, the lower rivet in the pair absolutely could be closer to the bottom of the Graflex than its corresponding rivet in the right side pair.
Forgive me, I wrote LEFT side but obviously I meant the RIGHT, now I have corrected the post. Anyway, we are probably not saying different things... I don't argue with the fact that the rivets could be of identical size (which in fact I think is entirely possible), I'm just saying that the placement of the rivets on the bottom half is certainly different: the rivets on the RIGHT side (or at lest the upper one) are located higher than the LEFT side rivets, so much so that the upper RIGHT rivet protrudes from the edge of the bottom, as highlighted by the reference I posted earlier. That said, if, as you say, the rivets on the left side are slightly overlapping then the lower part of both sets of rivets could also coincide.
 
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