My Luke ROTJ hero sabers are being recast by 89 sabers

[PoopaPapaPalps]

I’ll talk to the individual who provided the screen shots but you have to consider there is a very REAL possibility that by uncovering that dialogue and screen shots it would harm their and our ability to have this kind of information.

This individual member has taken great pains to mask his presence here as he is being watched by those off-site, related to those industrially recasting products, and is alerting those whose works are being taken about the ordeal. It should also be said that it's very sad that he's had to do this---he shouldn't have had to worry about this at all...but here we are. I would reconsider even taking this course.

They are being shared with the makers who are directly impacted while it is still volatile. At the moment (and I know it’s not satisfactory) you have to at least take my word for it....

I have thankfully not (yet) had my small run of hilts copied and this individual, out of diligence, went through lengths to clear the air with even just attempting to see if I had any interest in selling my hilts further, especially to him. I've been diligent to near-paranoid levels in screening almost everyone interested in my run because of issues like this but even I know it's only a matter of time.

I don't want to sound even more paranoid but we do have eyes on this place. This is a public forum after all. The only way we can have any impact on curbing the spread of recast wares is to get the word out. Like you said, these are guerilla tactics; we need to have eyes on them if they've got eyes on us. Information may not reach everyone, but another set of informed eyes is one less sale.


I'm not to tell anyone how to go about their business, but I will advise anyone---be it retailer or maker---to seriously reevaluate the companies (and their associates) you've outsourced to and get supplies from.

 

[Anakin Starkiller]

Stones in glass houses …

The photos provided above also don’t clearly prove recasting at all. Most of those pieces are different to yours. Has he used yours and tweaked them to his own design? Don’t know. But how can you prove it? Your all trying to emulate an original piece by copying it, they are all going to be damn similar anyway if your making a good replica, but at this point, his looks nothing like yours and thus without some proof, I’d argue it’s hard pushed to argue.

Here's how I can prove it. Thanks to Bryan

I'd also add that when someone brings up that they're being recast, whataboutism derails the argument and helps the recasters because it creates false equivalencies and normalizes their practices. Whether or not I had a product machined by a machine shop that 89sabers had previously used doesn't effect whether or not the sabers that KR was selling were recast by 89sabers. Responding with whataboutism muddies the waters and confuses the issue. I don't have to be a pure white knight in order for me to point out that a practice that is currently happening is wrong.

(And by the same token. If Khal's products get recast, its not OK because he used to sell 89sabers products!)

That's the type of response that the guerilla tactics, which Bryan PPP refer to, rely upon. 89sabers knows that if he can give people an out from holding fast to their moral compass and recognizing the truth of what he's doing, many will take it because a lot of sellers and buyers care far less about protecting makers who pour their heart and sweat into these designs than they do about making a quick buck or picking up a shiny new toy for a slight discount.

 

[GreyJediMaster]

What needs to be addressed is the fact that Korbanth sells 89 also.. And elf.

 

[Anakin Starkiller]

That is true. But again, Korbanth isn't a member hear and I'm sure he doesn't give a damn what ethical standards this community agrees upon. Calling him out for recasting wouldn't have much effect. He's built his business quite apart from the RPF community. Quite a lot of his customer base (As well as 89sabers' base) doesn't seem interested in knowing or respecting the work that goes into designing these replicas. They see shiny sabers for sale, they buy them, they don't want to know how the sausage is made.

 

[GreyJediMaster]

That is true. But again, Korbanth isn't a member hear and I'm sure he doesn't give a damn what ethical standards this community agrees upon. Calling him out for recasting wouldn't have much effect. He's built his business quite apart from the RPF community. Quite a lot of his customer base (As well as 89sabers' base) doesn't seem interested in knowing or respecting the work that goes into designing these replicas. They see shiny sabers for sale, they buy them, they don't want to know how the sausage is made.

I get that He had no morals on what He sells at all.

 

[Anakin Starkiller]

I don't know if I'd presume to make that much of an assumption (not disagreeing with you, I just want to clarify what I'm actually saying). I just think that he doesn't abide by the gentleman's agreement not to recast each other's work that the RPF is built on.

 

[Dumog]

A better way to handle this and a better way for the community as a whole to curb recasting is to grow relationships between designers and sellers and agree not to sell the products of people that have been proven to sell recasted hilts. A message to Khal privately saying hey I believe 89sabers recasted my hilt and then give him your proof would have went a long way in creating a better relationship and community. If Khal then proceeded to disregard your evidence and continue to sell the hilts that would be a discussion for the community, or to simply post that you believe they were recast here for khal and others to see and remove them. I don't have a dog in this fight but from an outsider I don't think you handled this situation very well at all Anakin.

 

[Anakin Starkiller]

You know. As Khal had said. He doesn't know me, and similarly before yesterday I didn't know Khal from adam. When I see my products being recast, I discuss it in an open forum because I think too much of this type of stuff goes on behind the scenes. The whole recasting of people's work has gotten so out of hand in the lightsaber circle because these so much less transparency than there used to be. People keep their projects close to their chest and consequently when customers start buying sabers and kits they don't really know what went into making them or who did the work. And most people don't really give a damn. They just want to buy and they don't care who they buy from. My Luke hero build (along with the MOM project, who I worked with for quite a while) was one of the most well documented publicly transparent prop projects ever done on the RPF, or any other replica prop community. My fingerprints are all over this design. I know a bunch of you want to jump on me and defend Khal and I get that there's loyalty there. But, I stand by my position that if you're selling a product that is stolen, you can't claim innocence by way of ignorance if you claim to be or at least allow others to appreciate you as being the expert in the field. If you're buying from someone who you know recast other builder's products, you put yourself at risk. If a guy I know to be sketchy approaches me and asks if I want to unload his wares in a trade, it's on me to do due diligence in finding out if those wares are stolen. Khal has admitted as much and I've accepted his statement that he shouldn't have accepted a trade with 89sabers after he knew the guy to be sketchy. I don't bring this up to attack Khal, but I don't accept the narrative that this sort of thing should be handled quietly. There's too much secrecy and private dealing all around in my book, and this creates the problem. That's why no one seems to know where their products come from or who might have got ripped off in the production of them.

Khal and I have been in discussion over on facebook and he has helped to confirm 89sabers recasting by providing additional references and measurements to Bryan. In response I sent him this message which I'm going to repost here, as I think it states something that's pretty important to this community

"Thank you for helping. I've edited the posts to remove your name from the banner. I'm leaving the post up as a whole because I think they contain important information people should know if they're going to buy these recasts. I'd love it if I could go after JQ Sabers and Korbanth for selling recasts of my work. But the sad fact is that they know they're participating in recasting, their customers know it, and they don't give a damn. If you feel singled out, it's probably because you're the only person who was selling them that would give a damn if they were recasts.

Korbanth and 89 and the like are sketchy and have always been sketchy in copying other peoples work. You (KR) on the other hand make amazing products that you develop on your own and which a lot of people, including me, have a lot of respect for. But when I see recasts showing up on your website, it serves to legitimize what people like 89 and Korbanth have been doing to me and a lot of folk over at the RPF."

 

[Triin]

There are so many ways we can handle these situations. There are so many things we can do. No one wants any work to be recast or copied but as Halliwax sadly said.. “this is the world we live in”. ( concerning the reproduction of trents stencils even.. which unfortunately has been done too )
Again, any copying is unacceptable.

That being said, the thing we don’t want for this community is to drive all of the research and collaboration underground in fear of these plagiarists. Yes they are everywhere and because the RPF is a valuable open source of amazing research and information, how do we safe guard ourselves from such?

It saddens me to know that there are individuals that pour hours upon hours upon hours of research into just the smallest of details only for someone to take that and steal it with minimal amount of effort. For profit. It casts a grey shadow over all of the effort put in. This should not stop what we love to do though. There are many ( like me ) who really honor and respect the amount of work put into making something that strikes us close to the heart. Fandom. To be able to hold something that resonates with us.

what happened today should be the spark to ignite what we should do as a community of prop makers and collectors to move forward in dealing with the plagiarism and blatant copying out there. Whether that be what Dumog and others said to form more relationships between the sellers and makers or strike some sort of accord with them.. the last thing we need is to escalate this issue further , thereby driving the research and over all, the public forum.. underground.

 

[BRRogers]

I would be truly pleased to consider this whole account a growing pain, a wrestling towards understanding, and a bolstering of resolve to deal with problematic entities outside of TheRPF brotherhood (and legitimized prop replication)... I'm glad I get to be a part of these efforts and happy to assist in defending or supporting as need be!

 

[Triin]

Same here!

 

[Dumog]

Happy to see this resolved! I'm very new to saber building having only started in the last year, but I have made 3 sabers in that time. I sourced all my parts from saberarmory so seeing this thread kinda left a bad taste originally and if I didnt continue to follow it I would have never purchased from them again, which is how it can actually hurt the community since kneejerk reactions are common particularly on Facebook. Also, being new to collecting and building 89sabers and Romans seems to be the only sources that are readily available since most others are limited runs and if you cant afford or miss it they are real tough to find. So was happy to learn not to buy 89sabers and from places like Korbanth so has been a blessing in that regard.

 

[Triin]

I don’t think this has been resolved. I mean the micro issue might have been but the much larger issue won’t be for a while at least. Simply , yes both anakin and khal may have come to an understanding but I think this topic has shifted into a much larger problem that needs to be addressed somehow. Which is why Anakin Starkiller said

There's too much secrecy and private dealing all around in my book, and this creates the problem. That's why no one seems to know where their products come or who got ripped off in the production of them.

This is the main issue underneath everything.

 

[Pedro]

Wow. I'm glad Dan and Khal have sorted this out, much respect to you both. Even using collectively gathered info/details in your designs can be a slipperly slope, but it's far too easy these days to just grab a caliper and cheap manufacturer and go to town!

I've been wondering about the recent deluge of well machined sabers (particularly from China). For example, it didn't take long for Leia sabers to show up on AliExpress, wondering if perhaps there's some affiliation with Korbanth (who's products I had thought were original or farmed out?). I'm not deeply into lightsabers at the moment, but am not at all surprised that manufacturers in China are copying designs. But, I was unaware that:
- There are so many makers/manufacturers making "accurate" hilts, copying from reputable designers.
- 89Sabers are 'recasting'. I don't doubt that it's absolutely true, but want to point out that this is not common knowledge. It feels like the old Stormtrooper recasting wars were more visible than this, for whatever reason.

Perhaps there should be a little more public disclosure about who's ripping off who? Damn, that doesn't sound fun either. Is there some kind of list of known makers to stay away from?

 

[BTTUK]

Wow. I'm glad Dan and Khal have sorted this out, much respect to you both. Even using collectively gathered info/details in your designs can be a slipperly slope, but it's far too easy these days to just grab a caliper and cheap manufacturer and go to town!

I've been wondering about the recent deluge of well machined sabers (particularly from China). For example, it didn't take long for Leia sabers to show up on AliExpress, wondering if perhaps there's some affiliation with Korbanth (who's products I had thought were original or farmed out?). I'm not deeply into lightsabers at the moment, but am not at all surprised that manufacturers in China are copying designs. But, I was unaware that:
- There are so many makers/manufacturers making "accurate" hilts, copying from reputable designers.
- 89Sabers are 'recasting'. I don't doubt that it's absolutely true, but want to point out that this is not common knowledge. It feels like the old Stormtrooper recasting wars were more visible than this, for whatever reason.

Perhaps there should be a little more public disclosure about who's ripping off who? Damn, that doesn't sound fun either. Is there some kind of list of known makers to stay away from?

Thing is, there's no point. In the fx saber hobby, plenty of people over the years have been warned about certain companies, with their poor workmanship, and sometimes dangerous installs. Yet here they still are, making a lot of money for their owners, with many who'll swear blind that nothing negative they hear or see could possibly be true.

Certain Graflex company is not well thought of on this site due to their behaviour (banned even), yet there they are still a lot of people's number 1 pick to buy products from.

People don't want to hear it, so I personally try not to bother to even attempt to show/explain to them.

Let people buy from where they want, however they want. At the end of the day, all that really matters to me, are my actions within both the fx saber community, and at large in the prop community here.

 

[Anakin Starkiller]

Perhaps there should be a little more public disclosure about who's ripping off who? Damn, that doesn't sound fun either.

This made me chuckle. Question asked and question answered.

I think the stormtrooper casting was more well know because the community was a lot smaller back then and more people were connected at the RPF. Now most of the people who are ripping people off don't have to give a damn about the RPF because they can sell product on Facebook, Alibaba, Etsy, and their own publicly advertised websites and forums. As the saber world moves away from the RPF and information sharing within the community decreases, we get more of a wild west situation elsewhere. To my mind, all we can do is try and insist that this doesn't fly on the RPF and in our community.

 

[Pedro]

Let people buy from where they want, however they want. At the end of the day, all that really matters to me, are my actions within both the fx saber community, and at large in the prop community here.

That exactly IS the point! For people who aren't especially active in the saber communities, it's difficult to make informed choices if this information isn't readily available. Sure, recasters aren't going away, but we all have to do our little piece, regardless of the overall effect (or lack thereof!).

 

[BTTUK]

That exactly IS the point! For people who aren't especially active in the saber communities, it's difficult to make informed choices if this information isn't readily available. Sure, recasters aren't going away, but we all have to do our little piece, regardless of the overall effect (or lack thereof!).

Which I agree with, however in the fx saber hobby, those who tried to bang the drums and make a noise about certain companies/individuals, just got tired of being ignored, then seeing those people turn up complaining about a defective product.

It grew at a very quick rate after 2015, and it most certainly has not been for the better.

Edit to add; After all the scammers, poor experiences within the fx saber hobby etc, I think i'm just massively burnt out with it.

 

[Pedro]

Which I agree with, however in the fx saber hobby, those who tried to bang the drums and make a noise about certain companies/individuals, just got tired of being ignored, then seeing those people turn up complaining about a defective product.

It grew at a very quick rate after 2015, and it most certainly has not been for the better.

This is sad to hear. I suppose it's hand in hand with this...exodus to Facebook that seems to be sort of diluting the hobby. Bleh!

 

[Triin]

This is sad to hear. I suppose it's hand in hand with this...exodus to Facebook that seems to be sort of diluting the hobby. Bleh!

This is what I was saying about dilution earlier..

All I can see is escalation. I think the best way is to inform those outside of the RPF or other saber forums is revealing exactly the source in a more provocative marketing way. I mean China copies everything. What can we do on our end to let those who are searching for something bespoke to know the source? It would take some work and I believe it would be worth it in the end. I certainly would like to know the provenance of the item I am buying.. but that’s me. I do know there are many who just doesn’t care .All I am saying is this should be looked at from a different angle from a protection standpoint from the hard working individuals who put the time and effort into the research and manufacturing.