More details on the Vader ROTJ saber - Please archive

[Oohyeah KL]

Looking at this pics again:

Why hasn't anyone suggested the possibility that it's a rusty metal disc that they put on, and then PAINTED with some grey paint??

Looks exactly like that to me now! Look at the brush marks and the wearing of the paint!

 

[DARTH SABER]

Yeah, looks like gray paint on that endcap...And yes you can see the brushstrokes also but the one thing that tells me it is metal is that dent on the right hand side (just under the dge of the D-ring) which shows what seems to be brass or rust colered metal showing through..

 

[obi1kenny]

Looks like a brass disc to me, then painted.

 

[fried mon calamari]

I outlined the areas that strike me as the brass disc ( yellow line) and the edge of the tube (red lines) or am I see this wrong?

That chip on the right was the final nail in the metal disc theory for me.

Who was it that said there wasn't anything more to learn about these saber? ( I think it was a few months back)

 

[Johnleprekan]

The pic looks like metal with glue smeared over that has been painted. In some areas, it looks like just metal with paint. If you look at the texture of some areas, it's like it's coated with something before they painted it or whatever that gray is.

 

[lonepigeon]

The endcap doesn't look painted to me. It looks too shiny.
I'm thinking maybe it's a dull metal plated washer. If it was plated all those scratches, chips etc would make those spots suceptible to rust. If the washer was too big and had to be filed down a little that would create the uneven rusty edge. I see the brassy spots though too.
Those look like sandpaper scratches more than brush strokes oin the surface to me.

KL- We already KNOW the two holes that you pointed out in that pic are NOT filled. It looks like they are in that one pic, but there are MANY other pics that clearly show them open (including the Archives book pic).

I have no alternate explanation for the supposed upper grip screw hole. Since there's only one visible I don't think that's enough to say it IS a grip screw hole though.

The ESB "Ranch" saber has the top grip screws approx 3/16" from the top of the grip (measuring from the hole center). All six screws are on the right side of the grip ridge (when saber is pointing up).

This new bottom photo brings up another question for me.
Why is the center of the rivet filled? We can clearly see the bottom of the center rivet holes and they appear flat black. With regular pop rivets are applied they leave the center hole open. Could there be something black inside filling the bottom part of the saber? or maybe the type of rivets used seal the center hole?

 

[DARTH SABER]

Who knows, maybe they covered up the remaining portion of the nail that was in ther...Or it could just be dirt.

The side hole looks like it has a spot of rust in there...

 

[Oohyeah KL]

</SPAN><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
lonepigeon wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
KL- We already KNOW the two holes that you pointed out in that pic are NOT filled. It looks like they are in that one pic, but there are MANY other pics that clearly show them open (including the Archives book pic).
</TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><SPAN CLASS=$row_color>

Well, my hypothesis was that they filled up the holes at some point in time in the saber's life. ie., the pics showing the filled up holes were the later pics, with the ones showing holes open (eg., the Archives pic) being earlier.

I would have dismissed this if not for Kenny pointing out that the "earlier" pics also show no crap in the recharge port, and yet in the later MOM pics there is now crap in there. He therefore suggested that it's probably the same crap.

Here are the pics again - notice the recharge port this time:

NOW YOU SEE CRAP:

PREVIOUSLY YOU DON'T:

How would you explain away this crap?

btw, I'm sticking to my paint on endcap theory. Just looks too much like paint and brush strokes...

 

[lonepigeon]

Go back and check all the other Magic of Myth pics in this thread. They show the holes are open.

 

[Oohyeah KL]

</SPAN><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
lonepigeon wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
Go back and check all the other Magic of Myth pics in this thread. They show the holes are open.
</TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><SPAN CLASS=$row_color>

Not sure I understand what you mean, but let me show you the analysis I've done.

After examining all pics I have seen, I believe that the crap that appears to be in the recharge port is PROBABLY NOT CRAP, but.... (drum rolls please)... an OPTICAL ILLUSION!!

See here, same MOM venue but different angles - what appears to be crap in the recharge port:

is actually only a reflection of (or dirt on) the side of the shroud, and there's no crap within the port itself in actuality:

Which leads me to the conclusion that what we thought was crap here is probably not crap, but caused by the same optical illusion due to the "different point of view"

HOWEVER, I still cannot put to rest the "Crap theory" regarding the grip holes, at least not yet.

First, I have noticed that the MOM pics we have were taken in at least 3 DIFFERENT VENUES, judging from the different saber stands that were used:
The saber stand in Venue #1 is short, the saber stand in Venue #2 is long, and the saber stand in Venue #3 is long but goes higher up vertically.

Pics from Venue #2 show the holes clearly, eg:

(I don't have pics from Venue #1 showing that part of the saber, so I can't tell).

It is pics from the Venue #3 that the holes appear filled in, hence my original assumption that Venue #3 was the latest venue, and they had filled in the holes in between the venues.

I would have been prepared to concede that the filled-in holes were probably just another optical illusion caused by the different point of view, but what bugs me is this:

We have TWO PHOTOS from TWO DIFFERENT ANGLES, which suggest that the holes were filled with crap.

Angle #1 (one hole showing, looks like crap in there):

Angle #2 (2 holes showing, both looks like crap there too):

And note, the angle of these pics are not too different from the Venue #2 pic above, yet the holes show clearly in Venue #2, but not in Venue #3. in fact, if anything, the angle in the Venue #2 pic is more extreme and should more likely show the sides of the holes, yet the holes are clearly visible still, despite the extreme angle.

Anyway, the only way to prove decisively one way or another is if we can find more pics of Venue #3 (look out for the long saber stand which goes up quite high) showing that side of the saber.

Until then, I think it's more probable that they filled it with crap. (I'm not 100% sure, of course, but I think it's more probable than not.)

I rest my case.

 

[DARTH SABER]

Im going to agree with KL on the endcap being painted rather than sanded...

Those brush strokes are very pronounce, and I dont know of any sandpaper that has grit strong enough to leave markings like that on metal with a single wipe...

I did admit that I do see the metal disc on the bottom of this saber, but the only reason I acknowledge it as being metal is because of the brassy edges, and that dent exposing brass, not becuase of the color of the disc itself.

To me it looks like the disc was painted glossy gray with a brush..

 

[Johnleprekan]

That white crap might also be paint that slopped over.

 

[lonepigeon]

If the holes are filled with crap now then we know it's a modification made during the tour.
Is this something anyone would want to duplicate?
Since it would be a very recent change it's not too relevant to replicas or documenting construction of the original. It is noteworthy for discussion though.

Could just be when they dusted it or something. All the dirt/dust went right into the holes.

Considering the magnification of the photo, the streaks on the bottom of the endcap are not very large. They're similiar in size to the 'file marks' on the ends of the grips. A rough metal sandpaper would do that easily.
I'm doubting the brass color too. The color on that entire photo is off. Look at the D-ring, it's usually a solid rust color. I think the 'brass' area could go either way (brass or rust).

 

[steveday72]

Jeez, I'm catching up with the 150+ posts that were added while I was sick over the weekend. I've read a few pages, but before I forget things, I'm going to make replies as I go...


First off, a quick reply to Brevin's question:

[Springs]

</SPAN><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
Brevin Din-Shay wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>

---8< -- Snip -- >8---

I still have a question, though. Like I asked earlier, why would a momentary switch NOT have springs inside? After all, that's what makes it work, right?

</TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>


Normally in regular switches, they use a piece of flat metal (usually plated copper) that acts as the spring and the conductor at the same time. I have seen some low current and miniature switches with springs in them though, but they're more delicate overall.



[Activator Screws]
Kenny - the photo of your modified activator has a sleeve around the frontmost screw, but in the enhanced image I did you can see that screw thread is not covered, but being washed out by the flash photography...

[Endcap]
The endcap is not a reflective metal, but rather an opaque surface applied to the brass plate that is underneath and visible where the paint/putty has been scratched.


[Grips]
In the following photo from CRProps, I noticed that the ends of the grips (especially the top right one) appear to have tiny holes in them - just like the ones you find from a poor resin cast:

There's no proof behind my theory (other than the above possibility of the bubbles in cast resin), but I don't feel the grips are metal. Mainly because I think it would've been too much trouble for the props guys to be bothered with.


[Rivets]
<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
Lonepigeon wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>

This new bottom photo brings up another question for me.
Why is the center of the rivet filled? We can clearly see the bottom of the center rivet holes and they appear flat black. With regular pop rivets are applied they leave the center hole open. Could there be something black inside filling the bottom part of the saber? or maybe the type of rivets used seal the center hole?
</TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><SPAN CLASS=$row_color>

The pop-rivets I use leave part of the stem in the reverse side of the rivet, if they didn't, then there's nothing to stop the hollow rivet from collapsing and popping out. Blind rivets completely block the hole.

The black at the bottom of the hole is just years of crud and possibly some bantha poodoo.


[Activation Box Mounting]
Working from various photos to get clean and accurate measurements, along with the photo with measurements from SW to Indy photo, I completed the 3D mock-up of the Darth Vader lightsaber.

What I found was that if the bottom tube is a Graflex (and by the lining up of the L slot and also the ESB grip holes, it does appear to be) then there's a space between the two halves of the tubes (without taking measurements from the model again, I think it was around 10mm to 12mm). I wonder if this is this the height difference between an MPP and a Graflex?.

The screws are drilled and possibly tapped through a blank area of each half of the Graflex, in between the L shaped bayonet slots.

I expect the light colored tube that is visible near the top of the saber goes down through the handle and helps give some support to this extended area.

The following images are quick previews from my 3D modelling program. They show how the two halves line up in relation to the measurements and photos that have all been cross referenced and triple checked against known parts and each other...

On my measurements, I found that the rear notch of the activation box is 1mm shorter than the front notch - this now makes sense, after seeing the profiles that show a slope towards the rear (possibly something got chipped off there - it looks like old bakelite plastic anyway, which is very brittle).


Well, I just hope this posts okay and doesn't get lost by a server somewhere, as it's gone 2am and I'm ready to fall into bed.

Steve

 

[Darf Vader]

</SPAN><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
lonepigeon wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
If the holes are filled with crap now then we know it's a modification made during the tour.
Is this something anyone would want to duplicate?
</TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><SPAN CLASS=$row_color>
Filling my saber with crap?

I think that's an accuracy I'm willing to overlook.

 

[Darf Vader]

Steve, I see the bubbles you're talking about, but again check out this pic:

On that silver spot that's exposed, it's not just one color. You can see what appears to be rust/oxidation in there.


And the way that chunk of black is missing suggests metal.

Doesn't paint sticks better to resin than it does metal?


If T-Track is hollow, and like Chris suggested, they dipped it in rubber or some coating substance, couldn't those bubbles be in the coating that's filling in the hollow T-Track?

 

[fried mon calamari]

Holy crap Steve!( since we're on a "crap" streak!)
Those are some GREAT renders!

As far as the grip/resin theory-
If they were resin cast then painted black, it could explain then light chip in the middle of the right hand grip. I think David made a comment on the resin theory saying that it would peel rather than shave off. I haven't worked with resin much, just a few finished pieces, so I can't say much on that point. But they would have had to go through a couple rounds of black paint to touch up the chips and that major gash in the front of the grip opposite the control box

I think you're right on the money with the 'gunk" in the recharge port. Chances are good that what looks like filler was just reflection or the same type of putty that we saw in this shot

</SPAN><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
steveday72 wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>

The pop-rivets I use leave part of the stem in the reverse side of the rivet, if they didn't, then there's nothing to stop the hollow rivet from collapsing and popping out. Blind rivets completely block the hole.

</TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><SPAN CLASS=$row_color>

I just checked the rivet on my Graf ANH and the end of the rivet is filling up the bottom of the hole on mine., That plus 20 years of "crap" could give the same result as teh CRProps Base pic.


Front Control box screw-
Here's another shot of the front screw and threads.I haven't recieved permission to post the complete shot so I'm only showing this one part.

( once I get the OK I'll post it , cuz I've got a couple more question because of it!)

The threading matches the shot from David

This thing LOOKS like crap as it is without FILLING it with crap too!

 

[Oohyeah KL]

</SPAN><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
lonepigeon wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
If the holes are filled with crap now then we know it's a modification made during the tour.
Is this something anyone would want to duplicate?
Since it would be a very recent change it's not too relevant to replicas or documenting construction of the original. It is noteworthy for discussion though.

</TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><SPAN CLASS=$row_color>

I agree that it's not something I (nor any sane person) would replicate. (hmm, or perhaps DS might, not sure..

)

I think it's useful to know what sort of things they might have done to the saber over the years, so that we can deduce what the original version looked like.
ie., some shots which look like crap (eg,. the other recharge port) might not have been there in the original, which would save DS some trouble...

Steve, those are great renders!!

But on the subject of the activation box, what do you make of this shot?

Compare and contrast with this pic:

 

[fried mon calamari]

KL,
I am at a loss as to what the he$$ that thing is in that gap!

I compared those shots and saw somthing else too

If you look at the spacing of the slot to the grip it seems to difer from the two shots. The shot with the mysterious metal strip looks like a shorter distance to the grips than the other one.
At first I thought it was an illusion given the change in angle, but if you look at the gap vs. the width of the grip, the gap on the left shot is almost as wide as the grip base and the upright and the shot on the right isn't even as wide as one side of the grip ( even if you take into account the distance lost by the leading edge of the grip that's hiding some of the gap)

Something else too,
I marked lines on the control box where the angle of offset is. It looks like there are 3 separate positions for the control switch.

 

[James Kenobi 1138]

I had an idea.

Maybe there was nothing covering the endcap during filming of ROTJ and the Graflex logo was visable. Maybe they took a putty knife and smeared something like 'Lab Metal' over the Graflex logo when the saber went on the MOM tour, so no one would see the logo and it would look more 'SW' like?

Do we have ANY photos that are PRE-MOM tour that show the endcap?