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The OT could do whatever the hell it wanted because it’s literally the beginning of the story and every sequel film in the OT after StarWars (ANH) followed suit with the information from the previous film. The ST are still SEQUELS to those core OT films and as such have to abide by the information given within them and their characters, or provide information within itself to fill that gap for a bridge. It doesn’t need to be everything but it cant be literally nothing which is what we got because they were too lazy to write for it knowing folks like yourself wont care about that because its a movie that has a StarWars label

So just because it's the first film it doesn't need a lot of background exposition? Even though there's clearly history there.

What about the other films? ESB? 3 years go by, the only expositions is the title crawl. ROTJ? A year goes by, the only exposition is again the title crawl. Where Luke goes from getting beat in the last film, to suddenly become a master swordsman! In a year! ATOC? 10 years go by, and all we get is the title crawl. Nothing about the Separatist movement starting, or Anakin's training. ROTS? 3 years of The Clone Wars go by. The only thing we got until the TV show was a very vague title crawl.

It seems to me that Star Wars has never been much on background expositions in the films. But rather letting other mediums fill in that stuff.
 
:confused::cautious::unsure::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

His knowledge of Star Wars, in-universe and real-world lore and history, is indeed prodigious. Why I don't dismiss him out of hand. But he is also the very definition of an apologist, in both the literal sense and the vernacular (no, seriously, you can check me on this -- go look it up). Yes, there are a few people who are determined to hate all the "Disney Star Wars" offerings in all media, and I feel pity for them. Others, like myself, could go toe-to-toe with him on deep-delve lore (like how George actually hadn't read or heard of Joseph Campbell when he wrote Star Wars, and it was only people telling him how his movie was the Hero's Journey that prompted him to afterward, or how Harrison re-wrote most of the horrible dialogue George had written for Han, or how the Sequel Trilogy plot thumbnail was written by George well before the sale to Disney, or... but you get the idea). But it's more than that.

I have been reading since I was 2 or 3. I remember getting up early before school in kindergarten to watch Star Blazers. I was a well-behaved kid and my parents took me with them to the movies, so I saw Star Wars when I was 2, Star Trek: TMP and ESB when I was 5, Wrath of Khan when I was 6, ROTJ when I was 8... And kicked into higher gear once I hit 9 and 10 years old -- Ghostbusters, Gremlins, Buckaroo Banzai, 2010, Terminator, Search for Spock, Back to the Future... They were also first-generation Trekkies, in college at the time, and some of those who wrote in to try to save the show each time. So I grew up with that on as background noise. Being raised by people with such inquisitive minds, dedicated bibliophiles, audiophiles, cinemaphiles... Well, these days I've got well over a thousand books (of which only about fifty are in my to-be-read stack), three thousand comics, hundreds of movies, anime, TV series, documentaries...

I have gotten, I like to think, a decently-honed sense of what constitutes a well-structured, well-written story, in all those media and more. And my -- and others' -- well-informed critique that George had a lot of ideas but never liked actually writing, that he liked the technology and process but hated working with people, that his inherent lack of a writer's instinct led to egregious and irreparable flaws in the structure of his Star Wars universe right from the get-go, that other people coming in later and misinterpreting things or being otherwise intellectually lazy has sometimes contributed gems, but more often compounded existing issues or introduced new ones -- all that is based on understanding, not lack of.

George had occasional spasms of self-awareness, when he told on himself, when he acknowledged his shortcomings and sought assistance to shore them up, which makes the rest of it all the more frustrating to us. We see, from what we've gotten, hints of what it could have been with a skilled writer taking his ideas and fleshing them out, a knowledgeable producer to ease the load on his shoulders and encourage him to let the story take as long as it takes to tell and not rush it, an instinctive editor like Marcia who can push for inclusions and exclusions that help the story, and so on like that. We love what we love, and because we know what we do about the craft, we know how much better it could have been, and how easily it could have been so. You said above that what might be "better" for some might be worse for those who like what we've got. I argue we're not really trying to undo any of the major story beats -- just present them better. Like Animaniacs had stuff that appealed to adults while sailing over kids' heads, but also had stuff that appealed to kids that adults enjoyed, too, I don't think it's an impossible goal. Psab keel can tell you the degree to which I believe this, but you seem to not be a fan of his, so there's that.

When we say that the shot framing in the prequels is flat and amateurish, we can (and have) pointed to exactly what we mean, and provide comparisons. When we say that the story is compressed and vital information is missing, we're not just stupid or lack movie-comprehension skills. We know there's stuff in the ancillary material (video games, comics, novels, magazine articles) that fills in some of the holes, but it is a valid argument that one should not have to read the tie-in fiction to be able to follow what's going on. The failure of the people actually writing the Sequel Trilogy is that they started in media res, like the original, but that doesn't work, because there's a body of six films and a TV series behind it now. The prior episode left off with a particular state of affairs. The opening crawl of the first new episode needs to bring the audience up to speed with absolute need-to-know. First paragraph, the tone of this episode and what happened previously. Second paragraph, a thumbnail of what's happened between then and now. Third/final paragraph, setting up context of the opening shot.

TFA's crawl did okay on #3 (Leia's sent Poe to get the map piece, and that's what we see, more or less, once we transition from the crawl to the movie), but failed utterly on #1. Luke disappearing needs to be later, not the first sentence. To tell us what's happened since the Ewok party, the context we're coming into, it needs to read more like:

Or something. It is a valid criticism to say the audience needed to be better informed of what had transpired since the last episode. Not everything, but enough to not be spending the whole movie trying to figure out what was going on. And, further, it is valid to say there needed to be a little more of the "old normal" ROTJ established at the beginning, even as things were crumbling. It is valid to say it should not be treated like the original film, i.e. hinting at nonexistent previous episodes that we just "missed". WE are going from episode VI to VII and theoretically haven't missed anything. We, the audience, should have, based on how people in the movie are responding to things, seen Luke training Ben, Ben's turn, the destruction of the training center, Luke telling Han and Leia and leaving despite their pleas, and the First Order finally making their move at least before moving on from there with Poe getting the map piece and so forth.

We have also, with few exceptions, maintaind all along that there are a lot of moments and elements and aspects of all the films that we like, to varying individual degrees and including the Prequels and Sequels, and not a blanket 100% "we hate everything about this movie and anyone who likes it is an idiot" (and the Wook's been banned for beating that long-dead horse). We are saying we like something (or are trying to like somethign or want to like something) despite its flaws, while the rebuttal we are getting is "you're mistaken -- it has no flaws". Over, and over, and over, and over. We get Joek3rr's position, and he has frequent good insights and arguments, but he is in error where the facts are concerned in this case. He points out information that explains things people are confused by that was in this novel or that game, while ignoring that it should have been in the movie. He points out that there's limited screen time, while ignoring that there should have been more movies for the story to have the room it needed to be told. He defends every creative choice with the vehemence of a True Believer, impervious to any objective argument about how this character arc is forced, or that sequence was badly staged, or this scene needed to be in this movie while that scene needed to be cut, etc., etc.

Effective would be if he acknowledged our points, considered them, and maybe once in a while conceded that one or another had some credence. The overwhelming sense we who engage with him have is that, to oversimplify, the execution of the Sequel Trilogy has been the Emperor's New Clothes, we're saying the Emperor is naked, and he (and you) are saying no he isn't it's the finest silk and ermine and if you can't see it you obviously need to educate yourself.


So I want to talk about the proposed alternate title crawl

"A generation has passed and the galaxy has become tense once more. Fractious politics in the New Republic Senate threaten to tear that body asunder the same way the Old Republic collapsed.

Recently, a new group calling themselves the First Order has been encroaching on the edges of Republic space. Senator Leia Organa, her warnings ignored, has resigned to form a resistance movement.

But then a mysterious calamity befell Luke Skywalker's new Jedi training center and he disappeared. Leia, desperate to find her brother, has sent her most trusted pilot to run down a lead...."

It's not bad but reads more like the introduction to a storybook. Or maybe a history book. Not bad per se. But it's not very catchy. But compare it to the actual one.

"Luke Skywalker has vanished. In his absence, the sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the Empire and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed.

With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE. She is desperate to find her brother Luke and gain his help in restoring peace and justice to the galaxy.

Leia has sent her most daring pilot on a secret mission to Jakku, where an old ally has discovered a clue to Luke's whereabouts...."

This one is catchy. I am a part-time teacher and I know a bit about catching people's attention. The one you show is slightly yawn-inducing. Whereas "Luke Skywalker has vanished" grabs your attention. First, it starts with Luke's name, that alone is going to get attention. Then it says that he's vanished?!? 'Who, what, where, when, how?!?!?' BAM Got your attention. Your listening and you're reading the rest of the crawl. Which is important, because not very many people actually read them. ( or at least in my family and friends, nobody does) In my opinion, that's what makes it a good title crawl. Though ROTS is better. as it just starts with "War!" Sweet simple and hooks your attention.
 
So just because it's the first film it doesn't need a lot of background exposition? Even though there's clearly history there.

What about the other films? ESB? 3 years go by, the only expositions is the title crawl. ROTJ? A year goes by, the only exposition is again the title crawl. Where Luke goes from getting beat in the last film, to suddenly become a master swordsman! In a year! ATOC? 10 years go by, and all we get is the title crawl. Nothing about the Separatist movement starting, or Anakin's training. ROTS? 3 years of The Clone Wars go by. The only thing we got until the TV show was a very vague title crawl.

It seems to me that Star Wars has never been much on background expositions in the films. But rather letting other mediums fill in that stuff.

Sweet ******... did you need to read The Silmarillion in order to understand what’s going on in Lord of the Rings?? This really isn't that hard
 
Sweet ******... did you need to read The Silmarillion in order to understand what’s going on in Lord of the Rings?? This really isn't that hard
That isn't even remotely similar to what we are talking about. There's something like 7,000ish years between the two. We're talking years, to decades.
 
That isn't even remotely similar to what we are talking about. There's something like 7,000ish years between the two. We're talking years, to decades.
The amount of time between events literally doesn’t matter because the story is written in such a way that we are given all the necessary information needed to understand the major events and how the universe around said story works for the events that will unfold. This is the point that I and many others are trying to make, that the ST is severely lacking in this necessary information because of lazy writing. And this information is inherently tied to the believability of the story.
These arent even necessarily things that are individual opinions. These are object things that you can quantify and are required for any well written story. Aka the difference between good and bad writing
 
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The amount of time between events literally doesn’t matter because the story is written in such a way that we are given all the necessary information needed to understand the major events of the story and how the universe around said story works for the events that will unfold. This is the point that I and many others are trying to make, that the ST is severely lacking in this necessary information.

And what is missing? I mean I just showed you how the other films have pretty fair gaps between the films that they don't bother give detailed information for. And ST is different how?
 
And what is missing? I mean I just showed you how the other films have pretty fair gaps between the films that they don't bother give detailed information for. And ST is different how?

For this I'm just going to refer you to Inquisitor's post rather than just rewriting the same thing over again since you guys seemed to jump right over it with all the mental gymnastics
Edit: Didn't realize we migrated over from the ROTS thread to this one and it threw me way off hahaha
Couple things...

People pointing out production goofs =/= hating on the whole movie/trilogy/saga. The goofs from Star Wars don't detract for me. Some I like to work into the lore, like Mr. No-Stripes (Stormtroopers have 10-13 stripes painted on the side tubes of their helmets -- what does this denote? -- and a few have none -- what does this denote?), some should just be taken at face value (one Stormtrooper misjudged and donked his helmet on the opening door -- happens) and not given a whole big thing (George adding a "BONK" sound in the most recent home-video release, and having Jango bonk his head on Slave I's hatch because in his universe clumsiness and accents are inherited by clones), and some are just goofs/unavoidable (flopped shots, missing/cracked armor, Harrison blinking when his gun goes off, etc.). These are things we accept as an artifact of moviemaking. Nothing to do with story, character, cinematography, editing... Calling out what is probably an unfinished effect in a trailer isn't even that, though. It's just a "hey, look at the thing, isn't that amusing".

And so, point two. Story. Figure very few read my extensive grumble, above, or they'd see I addressed what a few have posted since. Star Wars got away with coming in in media res because of the conceit that we were coming in partway through an adventure serial. That if we'd seen the "previous episodes", we would have known about the Republic, the rise of the Empire, the Clone Wars, the Jedi Knights, all that jazz. It wasn't too germane to the plot to know the finer points. There's an Empire where once was a Republic, and the common man ain't too happy about it. Got it. There used to be space knights called Jedi who worked with/for the Republic, but got wiped out by the Empire. Got it. There were some bygone conflicts called the Clone Wars and the Jedi were involved. Got it. If it had been important to the plot to know the minutiæ of any of that, and the information were left out, that'd be bad writing. It wasn't, so it's not. The only real sloppiness is a perennial one -- passage of time. And it's not that big a deal. Stormtroopers missing was almost entirely on the Death Star, and they were under orders to let the Rebels escape, and to this day it amazes me that more people don't realize that.

Always had a problem with the Ewoks, though, even at age 8, including their super-effectiveness against the Emperor's crack troops.

The Prequels were meant to fill in that backstory that we "missed", except it wasn't done all that well and blew all the big reveals of the Original Trilogy. Between the two, though, we have all the backstory we need to comprehend the major players (even if I feel it could've been established better in TPM). We don't need to see the founding of the Republic or the Jedi, we don't need to see the rise of the Sith or the Mandalorian Wars or any of that. It's fun, but not necessary. But the Sequel Trilogy really does muff it with the gap between episodes. The First Order isn't the Empire, but everyone seems to know what it is except us. The Resistance isn't the Rebellion, but if the First Order isn't the Empire, and the Republic is in charge, what are they resisting? Han and Leia know who Snoke is. We don't, but the reference to him tuning Ben -- who we've only just met after he turned -- implies something that happened that we missed. Except we didn't. Last thing we saw was Our Heroes, victorious, having a bonfire party with the Ewoks. Star Wars is meant to be a linear story, with trope-y melodramatic twists (twin sister, villain is hero's father, presumed-dead baddie returns, etc.), not a whodunnit where the audience is kept guessing until the last act. Not everything needs to be spelled out in West End Games/Decipher level of excruciating detail, but more needed to be frontloaded to blend the period transition than was.

Not saying it needs to be dumbed down for the lowest common denominator, either. No matter how clearly it could be spelled out, there would always be some in the audience upset that the First Order blew up Coruscant, for instance. Even though the actual target was named onscreen several times. But the rise of the First Order, turning of Ben, and destruction of Luke's training center are important things that we need to see as transition from happy victory to things fall apart. We don't have real or implied Prequels to the Sequels to maybe get twenty years from now -- the previous episode is right there and absolutely zero of this is even implied yet beyond the vagueness of Yoda's admonition to Luke to "pass on what [he has] learned". And no, ancillary materials aren't an out. It needed to be up there on the big screen. That's where most of the audience is. Believe it or not, some actual Star Wars fans don't even know there are books or comics. Others know there are, but are used to them telling side stories or otherwise elaborating on what's in the movies -- not required reading to have even an inkling of who the First Order are (we still don't really know, two acts in). Heck, dial the clock back and have TFA start with ten minutes showing Leia trying to warn the senate about the First Order, her parentage getting revealed, her quitting and starting the Resistance, Luke and Ben returning and Ben's state of mind being apparent, the confrontation, the destruction, Luke apologizing to Leia, telling her about Snoke, and leaving despite her protestations. Fade to "several years later" and the First Order landing craft descending to Jakku. Boom. Done. All the information we need. Leave Rey to be the big mystery for the trilogy, rather than everything.

Nothing to do with being whiny or needing to be spoonfed anything. Basic story mechanics for the genre in question,
 
Joek3rr, that was only a second or third pass. It's' hard to condense necessary information down to just a few words. Hence why I said just wind the clock back and spend fifteen minutes at the front of the movie showing everything falling apart for Our Heroes rather than starting with Luke missing and Han and Leia separated and their son turned to the Dark Side.

Three years pass between Star Wars and Empire, and while there are adventures in that span that the comics (among other things) have gone into, the relevant bit is in the ESB title crawl. The Rebels were chased off Yavin by Imperial troops and have been on the run ever since. That sounds awful enough I noticed it even as a five (almost six) year old. I remember when they encountered the probe droid and General Rieekan said to prepare to evac, I turned to my mom to say something like "that's not fair, they just got there", but was utterly distracted by the opening measures of Darth Vader's new theme (subtitle: The Imperial March). I think that was when I knew I needed to be one of the bad guys when playing dress-up... :unsure:

Also, I'm of the opinion that a couple weeks at most pass between the end of ESB and the beginning of ROTJ. Blasphemy! I hear people say. What about Shadows of the Empire? I hear people ask. Mediocre cross-media event, even at the time. I have the novel, both comic series, the pop-up book, the video game, the soundtrack CD, the WEG sourcebook and planet guide, and several action figures. I like the Coruscant Guards. I like seeing how Leia acquired Boushh's clothing. I like the YT-2400. I like Guri and Black Sun. But Xizor himself was dreadful, Dash Rendar was kinda annoying. And the whole thing about, basically, trying to figure out where Boba Fett had taken Han was stupid. At the end of ESB, Luke said "I'll meet you at the rendezvous point on Tatooine". Did everyone forget that? No, I feel the 1-1.5 years between the start of Empire and the start of Jedi are mostly eaten up in months of the Falcon limping to Bespin while Luke trains on Dagobah.

The nature of the opening crawl is unfortunately a little all over the place, though. I go by the example of the first two, because everything since has drifted further and further from what they originally were and were intended to be. Because of how George compressed everything, ROTS does not now naturally lead into ANH. At the end of Episode III, we do not see the Rebels winning their first victory over the evil Galactic Empire and stealing the Death Star plans. That's not backstory, that's supposed to be a re-cap for people who missed last Saturday morning's episode. Instead we have a nineteen year gap where Luke grows up. In that sense, the crawl for TFA is perfectly in keeping with George's Star Wars (as distinct from the collaborative effort that was Star Wars and Empire), given the opening crawl of Star Wars also refers to exciting events that we don't get to see but happened just before the episode started (since Rogue One isn't one of the saga films, it doesn't go there).

But the TFA crawl is... I don't know if misleading is the right word. There is implication that because the First Order rose from the ashes of the Empire, they're in some portion of Imperial space, rather than having formed out in the Unknown Regions and only been making inroads into the Republic for a year or so. Leia's leading a Resistance, but who are they resisting? The First Order isn't the government or an occupying army, WWII-France-style. For all that we're still groping around in the dark, the crawl could just as well have gone "A generation has passed and everything's gone to hell. We're going to tell you bugger-all. Have fun figuring out who's who and what's going on. Go!" and we'd be no worse off. Maybe better, because then we'd know it's a whodunnit instead of a straight narrative.
 
Joek3rr, that was only a second or third pass. It's' hard to condense necessary information down to just a few words. Hence why I said just wind the clock back and spend fifteen minutes at the front of the movie showing everything falling apart for Our Heroes rather than starting with Luke missing and Han and Leia separated and their son turned to the Dark Side.

Three years pass between Star Wars and Empire, and while there are adventures in that span that the comics (among other things) have gone into, the relevant bit is in the ESB title crawl. The Rebels were chased off Yavin by Imperial troops and have been on the run ever since. That sounds awful enough I noticed it even as a five (almost six) year old. I remember when they encountered the probe droid and General Rieekan said to prepare to evac, I turned to my mom to say something like "that's not fair, they just got there", but was utterly distracted by the opening measures of Darth Vader's new theme (subtitle: The Imperial March). I think that was when I knew I needed to be one of the bad guys when playing dress-up... :unsure:

Also, I'm of the opinion that a couple weeks at most pass between the end of ESB and the beginning of ROTJ. Blasphemy! I hear people say. What about Shadows of the Empire? I hear people ask. Mediocre cross-media event, even at the time. I have the novel, both comic series, the pop-up book, the video game, the soundtrack CD, the WEG sourcebook and planet guide, and several action figures. I like the Coruscant Guards. I like seeing how Leia acquired Boushh's clothing. I like the YT-2400. I like Guri and Black Sun. But Xizor himself was dreadful, Dash Rendar was kinda annoying. And the whole thing about, basically, trying to figure out where Boba Fett had taken Han was stupid. At the end of ESB, Luke said "I'll meet you at the rendezvous point on Tatooine". Did everyone forget that? No, I feel the 1-1.5 years between the start of Empire and the start of Jedi are mostly eaten up in months of the Falcon limping to Bespin while Luke trains on Dagobah.

The nature of the opening crawl is unfortunately a little all over the place, though. I go by the example of the first two, because everything since has drifted further and further from what they originally were and were intended to be. Because of how George compressed everything, ROTS does not now naturally lead into ANH. At the end of Episode III, we do not see the Rebels winning their first victory over the evil Galactic Empire and stealing the Death Star plans. That's not backstory, that's supposed to be a re-cap for people who missed last Saturday morning's episode. Instead we have a nineteen year gap where Luke grows up. In that sense, the crawl for TFA is perfectly in keeping with George's Star Wars (as distinct from the collaborative effort that was Star Wars and Empire), given the opening crawl of Star Wars also refers to exciting events that we don't get to see but happened just before the episode started (since Rogue One isn't one of the saga films, it doesn't go there).

But the TFA crawl is... I don't know if misleading is the right word. There is implication that because the First Order rose from the ashes of the Empire, they're in some portion of Imperial space, rather than having formed out in the Unknown Regions and only been making inroads into the Republic for a year or so. Leia's leading a Resistance, but who are they resisting? The First Order isn't the government or an occupying army, WWII-France-style. For all that we're still groping around in the dark, the crawl could just as well have gone "A generation has passed and everything's gone to hell. We're going to tell you bugger-all. Have fun figuring out who's who and what's going on. Go!" and we'd be no worse off. Maybe better, because then we'd know it's a whodunnit instead of a straight narrative.

So one day I was doing some Google searching for how long Luke was supposed to be on Dagobah. I found a reddit thread where someone did the math, useing the speed of the Falcon's backup hyperdrive. They came to the conclusion that Luke was on Dagobah for 5 to 7 days. Which makes sense to me, cause I highly doubt the Falcon would have food for over year. But anywho....

For this I'm just going to refer you to Inquisitor's post rather than just rewriting the same thing over again since you guys seemed to jump right over it with all the mental gymnastics
Edit: Didn't realize we migrated over from the ROTS thread to this one and it threw me way off hahaha

So here's how see things.

Who's the First Order? They are a military regime that came from the Empire determined reclaim the glory of the Empire. I would argue that it doesn't matter that they don't make it clear that they rose up in Unknown Regions. We've never see a map of the galaxy before in films. So not showing that, isn't going change anything.

Who's Snoke? He's an ugly pale dude in charge of the First Order. That turned Ben. That's all we need to know, for right now. And plus let's wait to see what TROS adds. I really feel that many have placed more emphasis on Snoke then. There should be. When he's the 'look at my right hand, while I do this with my left hand.'

What about Luke's Jedi Academy? Han fills us in. Luke started one. It got destroyed by Ben. Again I don't feel, we need to see anymore. It would be cool, but not necessary. And besides if you show that at the beginning then, you completely take away any mystery with what happened between Luke and Ben. It would be like watching the PT before the OT. It completely spoils the "I am your father."

And the Resistance? Leia started it. And it's called that cause they are resisting the First Order's rise to power.


Anyways just some thoughts. In my mind they've provided all the pertinent information that I need to enjoy the story. Without giving up on any mystery.
 
I started reading the RC books again and I thought they had an interesting point on the Jedi and the Light/Dark Side. Without spoiling it for people who haven't read it, a Jedi character encounters another character who is torturing a suspect for info. She notes that he does not show up as being of the Dark Side when she reads him with the Force, even though he should. He is just doing his job, but not doing it out of malice or being evil. Even though the person is doing something that would be considered evil, his completely detached manor and lack of malice is completely Jedi like in being dispassionate and impartial. The interrogator thinks he's right and doing good, so he doesn't read as bad or evil. Now this could just be the writer's take, but it's interesting. It would be interesting to hear Lucas' take on that and what actually makes an action of the Dark Side and what things skirt the line if you're doing it with the "correct" frame of mind.
 
I started reading the RC books again and I thought they had an interesting point on the Jedi and the Light/Dark Side. Without spoiling it for people who haven't read it, a Jedi character encounters another character who is torturing a suspect for info. She notes that he does not show up as being of the Dark Side when she reads him with the Force, even though he should. He is just doing his job, but not doing it out of malice or being evil. Even though the person is doing something that would be considered evil, his completely detached manor and lack of malice is completely Jedi like in being dispassionate and impartial. The interrogator thinks he's right and doing good, so he doesn't read as bad or evil. Now this could just be the writer's take, but it's interesting. It would be interesting to hear Lucas' take on that and what actually makes an action of the Dark Side and what things skirt the line if you're doing it with the "correct" frame of mind.

I would say so. Yoda says that the Dark Side is, fear, anger, aggression, hate. So for a Jedi to be able to kill or in this case torture, they would have to do it without those negative emotions. I think a good example of this is in ROTJ. Palpatine tells Luke that if he strikes him down with all of his anger he will complete his journey towards the Dark Side. So I would guess that if Luke could have killed Palpatine without anger. He would have been just fine.

Reminds a little of Joseph Campbell's tale about a Samurai Joseph Campbell’s samurai tale
 
I saw this story and it just doesn’t make sense if true.


So what are they afraid of, that it might look like a real thermal detonator.... which isn’t a real thing.

Seems to me these should not be an issue if you take the cap off and pack them separately. Otherwise it is just a plastic ball. If you can’t have that then are all round objects banned?

And why do people keep comparing these to thermal detonators? Besides being round, that’s where the similarities end. These are simply suppose to represent alien soda containers.


Follow up. Looks like TSA has revised their policy...

 
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