Lets talk all things Star Wars

[Halliwax]

I am hearing that The Acolyte has wrapped-up and the end-product was just as bad as people feared.

At this point, here is my cynical take…

Those of you who are crushed by Disney Star Wars…but keep showing up expecting a different product or experience…it reminds me of an abusive relationship in which the abused party keeps showing up, thinking things are going to be “different”…

This one hits home…

 

[Joek3rr]

True heroism is selfLESSness. Less me. More you. So much of what's being perpetuated is the magnification of self, at the expense of everything else. My identity. My happiness. My worldview. My experience. My wants and desires. Art naturally reflects the attitudes and beliefs of those who create it, so when your directors, writers, and actors are self absorbed, the work reflects that because the public is obsessed with themselves. Social media plays a huge role in this issue.

You just hit the nail on the head with biggest sledge hammer in existence.

This ideology that's infected our society. The ideology of 'me, me, me.' Its in essence an religion, with us as "gods." And it's everywhere. Even in deeply rooted religious circles, like various sets of Christianity. (It gives the vibe of occultism. Bending the natural world to your desires and wants.) And in Star Wars terms it's literally the pathway of the dark side. The pathway of the light is selflessness. And pathway of the dark is selfishness. And it's extremely dangerous.

 

[Darth Lars]

Those of you who are crushed by Disney Star Wars…but keep showing up expecting a different product or experience…it reminds me of an abusive relationship in which the abused party keeps showing up, thinking things are going to be “different”…

On the other hand, we were positively surprised by Andor and somewhat by (at least the first season of) The Mandalorian.

I'm just not as involved as I used to be. I salute the people involved with artwork, models, costumes and props in the various recent series: there are some newer props that I've been itching it replicate, but I prefer to pretend that they had been part of better stories than those that were told.

 

[Captain Dunsel]

As much as I enjoy movies and television, Hollywood is so out of touch with reality that I have no respect whatsoever for any of their moral posturing. It's obnoxious.

What it boils down to is that there are very few, if any, true aspirational heroes in much of popular television shows and film. While the literary term hero is thrown around a lot, obviously referring to the protagonist of the story, that doesn't automatically mean that this person is someone to be admired. Often they really shouldn't be admired at all.

True heroism is selfLESSness. Less me. More you. So much of what's being perpetuated is the magnification of self, at the expense of everything else. My identity. My happiness. My worldview. My experience. My wants and desires. Art naturally reflects the attitudes and beliefs of those who create it, so when your directors, writers, and actors are self absorbed, the work reflects that because the public is obsessed with themselves. Social media plays a huge role in this issue.

The problem then becomes a matter of mistaking character flaws as being virtuous, instead of challenges that the protagonist must overcome. They'll assume that because we can all relate to a character flaw, that this is what we ought to celebrate, when we should be celebrating that character being victorious over it. Relating to common problems creates empathy with an audience, but unless a protagonist can see the error of their ways, or muster the strength to work through those things, your fictional hero really isn't much of a hero.

This is why so much of the material out there feels empty and the journeys these fictional people go on end up hollow because there was no struggle at all. They just embraced those flawed aspects of their personality, never learn any lessons, never change as a result and instead of recognizing they can grow if they set aside their own needs for the sake of others, they remain exactly the same as how they started off at the beginning of the journey. Without a catharsis for the audience, you've left them feeling like they wasted their time.

Too many writers are ignoring universalism which finds commonality in the basic human experience, regardless of identity. They put the focus on self (whether it's the protagonist of a story, or the author writing it) when real heroes are willing to self sacrifice for a righteous cause, or to save someone's life/ ideals. The disconnect is astounding. Entertainment by its very definition is about other people. You can make a point about a political subject or cause you feel passionate about, but unless you have the skills to do it in a way that will allow an audience to be pulled into the fiction you've created, and trusting them to understand it without having to explain it to them outright, then you really ought to consider trying a different medium.

Persuasive thesis papers are really great for spelling out your ideas clearly without having to couch them in flowery language or fiction. A lot of these writers need to stick to theses, editorial journalism, or political commentary. They're not talented enough to skillfully make their point known through fiction. Recognizing your strengths is really difficult when you've got several generations now of people who were raised to think that everything they do is exceptional and that they're entitled to say or do whatever they want without consequence.

In a nutshell, you mean the that the modern definition of heroism is: “The needs of The one outweigh the needs of the many”?

Yeah, yeah, I know it’s Star Trek in a Star Wars thread…

 

[jts1031]

As much as I enjoy movies and television, Hollywood is so out of touch with reality that I have no respect whatsoever for any of their moral posturing. It's obnoxious.

Not to gloss over the rest of what you wrote, as it really cut to the heart of the matter and is eloquent, but I've never understood why actors who are told what to say, how to say it, where to stand, how to dress, and have as many chances as needed to get it right, somehow feel that translates in to moral and societal superiority. Baffling.

None of the new stuff prop-wise is enticing to me. I'm still trying to determine which Anakin Episode 3 hilt to open the wallet for. Always late to the party.

 

[Captain Dunsel]

Not to gloss over the rest of what you wrote, as it really cut to the heart of the matter and is eloquent, but I've never understood why actors who are told what to say, how to say it, where to stand, how to dress, and have as many chances as needed to get it right, somehow feel that translates in to moral and societal superiority. Baffling.

The best take on “the craft of acting” that I’ve ever heard:

 

[Psab keel]

Actors live and die by their need for attention. Even the best of them, as in the most grounded ones, are vain. You have to be self centered to a point to survive in that industry, much less thrive in it, so when you already have that sense of self importance and image is everything to you, then it follows that you would feel your perspective is the only one that matters. It cones as no surprise they act the way they do. Especially if they're attractive, because people concede to beauty all the time.

 

[Paul Andrew]

I saw a few videos about the chonky lightsabers in Acolyte being lore accurate for the time period because jedi used them for piloting their special jedi starships.

I think it's so they match the inevitable versions that will sell at Dok Ondar's place.

 

[Psab keel]

The best take on “the craft of acting” that I’ve ever heard:

His interviews on Conan are comedy gold. He really ought to venture into that genre because he's hilarious.

 

[Bloop]

As much as I enjoy movies and television, Hollywood is so out of touch with reality that I have no respect whatsoever for any of their moral posturing. It's obnoxious.

What it boils down to is that there are very few, if any, true aspirational heroes in much of popular television shows and film. While the literary term hero is thrown around a lot, obviously referring to the protagonist of the story, that doesn't automatically mean that this person is someone to be admired. Often they really shouldn't be admired at all.

True heroism is selfLESSness. Less me. More you. So much of what's being perpetuated is the magnification of self, at the expense of everything else. My identity. My happiness. My worldview. My experience. My wants and desires. Art naturally reflects the attitudes and beliefs of those who create it, so when your directors, writers, and actors are self absorbed, the work reflects that because the public is obsessed with themselves. Social media plays a huge role in this issue.

The problem then becomes a matter of mistaking character flaws as being virtuous, instead of challenges that the protagonist must overcome. They'll assume that because we can all relate to a character flaw, that this is what we ought to celebrate, when we should be celebrating that character being victorious over it. Relating to common problems creates empathy with an audience, but unless a protagonist can see the error of their ways, or muster the strength to work through those things, your fictional hero really isn't much of a hero.

This is why so much of the material out there feels empty and the journeys these fictional people go on end up hollow because there was no struggle at all. They just embraced those flawed aspects of their personality, never learn any lessons, never change as a result and instead of recognizing they can grow if they set aside their own needs for the sake of others, they remain exactly the same as how they started off at the beginning of the journey. Without a catharsis for the audience, you've left them feeling like they wasted their time.

Too many writers are ignoring universalism which finds commonality in the basic human experience, regardless of identity. They put the focus on self (whether it's the protagonist of a story, or the author writing it) when real heroes are willing to self sacrifice for a righteous cause, or to save someone's life/ ideals. The disconnect is astounding. Entertainment by its very definition is about other people. You can make a point about a political subject or cause you feel passionate about, but unless you have the skills to do it in a way that will allow an audience to be pulled into the fiction you've created, and trusting them to understand it without having to explain it to them outright, then you really ought to consider trying a different medium.

Persuasive thesis papers are really great for spelling out your ideas clearly without having to couch them in flowery language or fiction. A lot of these writers need to stick to theses, editorial journalism, or political commentary. They're not talented enough to skillfully make their point known through fiction. Recognizing your strengths is really difficult when you've got several generations now of people who were raised to think that everything they do is exceptional and that they're entitled to say or do whatever they want without consequence.

Apologies in advance - I don't mean for this to be seen as an attack on your views - but you said "Hollywood is out of touch with reality," and that the creators of shows like The Acolyte are too selfish because they don't present stories that are what you want. Couldn't that be considered an example of selfishness on your part?

So the show presented isn't totally what you consider to be consistent with what Star Wars originally was. Okay, I can agree with that. But saying the creators are selfish for presenting a different type of story seems extreme, and could be seen more as your own "selfishness," if you will (as you put it), than this being an example of the supposed selfishness of the entirety of Hollywood. That's a broad generalization that I don't believe is directly supported by anything you said.

Since this thread is supposed to be about Star Wars, I'll limit my comments to reflect the subject at hand.

Does The Acolyte show present "selfish" characters? Sure. But it's not all black-and-white. The original Star Wars movies also had selfish characters, not just "good vs evil." I just made this same comparison in another thread on this board - the original Star Wars trilogy may have presented a more idealized, "good vs evil" story than the current Star Wars stories today, but it also had more "shades of gray." Vader wasn't completely evil. Luke wasn't completely good, being drawn to the Dark Side through his anger. Han and Lando were the epitome of selfishness. And while they eventually do "the right thing," and work for "good," it's the conflict that made for an interesting story. The OT and prequels were a story about humanity and the choices they made that impacted their morality. Anakin was drawn to the Dark Side not just for selfish reasons - remember that he wanted to save Padme from her foretold death. You can certainly argue this is also selfish, in that he loved her and wanted to keep her with him, but he also chose to go toward the Dark Side, knowing it could corrupt his own self in order to help someone else. Padme accepted Anakin's genocide of the Sand People by giving him a hug - not exactly "good" of her. Does that mean the Lucas supports genocide, because heroes perpetrated and supported it? Of course not. Characters' behavior isn't necessarily a direct reflection of the creator.

The Acolyte, for all it's failings, has tried to present a similar story of conflicted morals and redemption. Maybe it's presenting too much "gray area" and not enough "black-and-white," but I believe the core story elements are consistent with what Lucas originally presented. If this is truly your main criticism of the show, and your reason for holding this as an example of everything that is "wrong" with Hollywood, then I suggest your reasoning is not supported. I'd be interested to hear of more specifics of what you think are examples of the selfishness of Hollywood creators, but again, this is a thread about Star Wars, and I don't want to go against the forum rules and risk getting someone else's thread shut down.

Again, I hope you take my comments in the spirit of debate as they were intended.

 

[Bloop]

Maybe you guys can help me then? So WTF happened? I was 20 yesterday. I was over at my mom's the other day and went to the basement to tell her something, one room away, and forgot why I went down there. I thought that happened way later!



(forgot to add the quote, sorry).
I don't think putting politics in SW is the problem. The problem is putting modern day Earth politics in it. George has said that the OT was a warning about fascism (real fascism, not "I don't like your opinion, so you're a fascist" fascism) so it was there to start with. I think that's why a lot of fans are put off like we're being talked down to or lectured. It takes you out of the story. I think if they were smart they would have gotten some of the old EU writers to write stories and have them turned into scripts. The majority of them (minus that Crystal Star author) at least got what made SW SW.

I'm cautious to talk politics, but I believe some of the reason we may be seeing more overt politicism in our entertainment is the very fact that the more subtle examples, like Lucas's original films, weren't obvious enough to people.

Look at Indiana Jones - it presents the Nazis as the villains, but more cartoonishly than in real life, so it's not necessarily taken as a warning of the dangers of a fascist regime. Star Wars presents things similarly with the evil Empire. Speilberg, as a Jewish man, later made Schindler's List to directly bring the horrors of the holocaust to a wide audience. Sometimes nuance and subtext are lost on audiences, so you have to be more direct with your messaging.

 

[ghostryder]

Leslye Headland Confirms That Major 'Acolyte' Finale Cameo: "Yeah, Baby. Plagueis."

Leslye Headland explains the major reveals in The Acolyte's Season 1 finale, the Osha/Qimir relationship, those major twists, & Season 2 plans.

collider.com

 

[Psab keel]

Apologies in advance - I don't mean for this to be seen as an attack on your views - but you said "Hollywood is out of touch with reality," and that the creators of shows like The Acolyte are too selfish because they don't present stories that are what you want. Couldn't that be considered an example of selfishness on your part?

So the show presented isn't totally what you consider to be consistent with what Star Wars originally was. Okay, I can agree with that. But saying the creators are selfish for presenting a different type of story seems extreme, and could be seen more as your own "selfishness," if you will (as you put it), than this being an example of the supposed selfishness of the entirety of Hollywood. That's a broad generalization that I don't believe is directly supported by anything you said.

Since this thread is supposed to be about Star Wars, I'll limit my comments to reflect the subject at hand.

Does The Acolyte show present "selfish" characters? Sure. But it's not all black-and-white. The original Star Wars movies also had selfish characters, not just "good vs evil." I just made this same comparison in another thread on this board - the original Star Wars trilogy may have presented a more idealized, "good vs evil" story than the current Star Wars stories today, but it also had more "shades of gray." Vader wasn't completely evil. Luke wasn't completely good, being drawn to the Dark Side through his anger. Han and Lando were the epitome of selfishness. And while they eventually do "the right thing," and work for "good," it's the conflict that made for an interesting story. The OT and prequels were a story about humanity and the choices they made that impacted their motality. Anakin was drawn to the Dark Side not just for selfish reasons - remember that he wanted to save Padme from her foretold death. You can certainly argue this is also selfish, in that he lived her and wanted to keep her with him, but he also chose to go toward the Dark Side, knowing it could corrupt his own self in order to help someone else. Padme accepted Anakin's genocide of the Sand People by giving him a hug - not exactly "good" of her. Does that mean the Lucas supports genocide, because heroes perpetrated and supported it? Of course not. Characters' behavior isn't necessarily a direct reflection of the creator.

The Acolyte, for all it's failings, has tried to present a similar story of conflicted morals and redemption. Maybe it's presenting too much "gray area" and not enough "black-and-white," but I believe the core story elements are consistent with what Lucas originally presented. If this is truly your main criticism of the show, and your reason for holding this as an example of everything that is "wrong" with Hollywood, then I suggest your reasoning is not supported. I'd be interested to hear of more specifics of what you think are examples of the selfishness of Hollywood creators, but again, this is a thread about Star Wars, and I don't want to go agsinst the forum rules and risk getting someone else's thread shut down.

Again, I hope you take my comments in the spirit of debate as they were intended.

No offense taken. I was speaking broadly about entertainment as a whole. Not necessarily Acolyte. I've never watched it and have little interest and only offered a few observations on it or made a few jokes. I think it looks and sounds unappealing, but having followed this thing my whole life, I have thoughts, even if I'm no longer on the team.

There's plenty of room for different kinds of stories for different audiences. That's why we have so many genres within fiction. You can pick and choose what appeals to you as a consumer. I'm open to hear other perspectives in fiction, but they have to entertain me first, and I can suspend my disbelief or give the story a chance. If the writing sucks, and their messaging isn't naturally woven into the story, then I check out completely. Even if I disagree with the message, I can still be entertained if it's done well enough.

What I was speaking about is this general attitude of reversing the definitions of heroism which happens a lot these days and celebrating things like apathy, cynicism, or selfishness as virtues. I have no tolerance for it because they're not virtuous at all.

When it comes specifically to Headland or other writers at Lucasfilm, they can write whatever they like, but ultimately their job is to entertain an audience. How the public responds to their work is not within their control and when you have a franchise that's endured in popularity for it's uplifting, wholesome take on good vs. evil, there is an expectation by a lot of people to remain close to that vision.

There's a direct correlation between the SW content that celebrates the optimistic spirit of the franchise and the successful reception by the audience, and the broadly abject response to the material that celebrates moral relativism.

 

[Kylash]

Great last episode, i thought it was fun overall, saw a lot of cool stuff we've never seen before, and got some cool new characters. Sol and Qimir were amazing.

 

[jts1031]

His interviews on Conan are comedy gold. He really ought to venture into that genre because he's hilarious.

Been a fan since Deadwood, but if you've never seen him in Santa Clarita Diet with Drew Barrymore, I think it's worth watching.

 

[batguy]

I think these tonal & moral issues are all over the entertainment industry in general.

Cynicism & deconstruction has a strong allure. It sells tickets in the short term. It gets critics gushing. Pop culture loves it.

But all that applause is short-term. That flavor of stuff looks back at the past and only works in the present. It's a foundation that you cannot build anything lasting on.


In the 1990s teenagers & adults loved Pulp Fiction & Reservoir Dogs. Those movies & characters were cooler than cool can get. But they were also creative dead ends. They had no future.

The goofy cheesy Super Mario Bros game? Now THAT had a future.

 

[Halliwax]

To this day I’ve never seen pulp fiction…

 

[Captain Dunsel]

To this day I’ve never seen pulp fiction…

You’re missing out…

“Smilo Ren” actually makes an appearance in it..:

 

[Laspector]

Ne Neither.

 

[Psab keel]

It's overrated. Tarantino has an ear for dialog. No question about it and watching the cast of his movies chew the scenery is always a delight, but the older I get the less appealing his films become on the whole.