Lets talk all things Star Wars

[batguy]

You know, when you really objectively think about the Star Wars Saga, a lot of subsequent lower tier storytelling rests on the shoulders of The Empire Strikes Back.

The saga really has been running on the remaining fumes of a tank that was last filled in 1980 and subsequent stories that never were the equal of that one film. Pretty amazing.

Yes, but with an asterisk.

I think they packed too much character-arcing into ESB and it left ROTJ without enough to finish.

Imagine if ESB had ended with Han & Leia's relationship still more rocky. And/or Lando's allegiance was still uncertain. ESB would still have been a fully-awesome movie but it would have left more dramatic punch for ROTJ. And the extra time in ESB could have been used to build everything up a bit more.

It's like the first Death Star in ANH. Having it there was great for ANH but it arguably hurt the larger trilogy a bit. Lucas's original mid-1970s instinct was to put (the only) Death Star at the end of ROTJ and that would have given the series a better plot overall. It's not as if ANH was gonna bomb in theaters without it. They could have just rescued Leia & attacked some kind of smaller Empire base or space station.


Everybody agrees that ROTJ is the weakest movie in the OT but I don't think it's entirely ROTJ's fault. The first two movies kind of overspent the resources in the creative sense. There just wasn't quite enough left in the tank when they got to the 3rd one.

 

[blewis17]

Yes, but with an asterisk.

I think they packed too much character-arcing into ESB and it left ROTJ without enough to finish.

Imagine if ESB had ended with Han & Leia's relationship still more rocky. And/or Lando's allegiance was still uncertain. ESB would still have been a fully-awesome movie but it would have left more dramatic punch for ROTJ. And the extra time in ESB could have been used to build everything up a bit more.

It's like the first Death Star in ANH. Having it there was great for ANH but it arguably hurt the larger trilogy a bit. Lucas's original mid-1970s instinct was to put (the only) Death Star at the end of ROTJ and that would have given the series a better plot overall. It's not as if ANH was gonna bomb in theaters without it. They could have just rescued Leia & attacked some kind of smaller Empire base or space station.


Everybody agrees that ROTJ is the weakest movie in the OT but I don't think it's entirely ROTJ's fault. The first two movies kind of overspent the resources in the creative sense. There just wasn't quite enough left in the tank when they got to the 3rd one.

I saw all three OT films during their initial theatrical runs in 1977, 1980 and 1983. ROTJ specifically on opening day (see my local theater below). When Vader's shuttle departed the Star Destroyer and headed for the DS 2, my FIRST thought was: "So... the Empire salvaged the Death Star debris from ANH, and are rebuilding it?"

 

[batguy]

I mean, it wasn't a goofy idea for the Empire to build a second DS.

Imagine if the USS Nimitz had been destroyed during its first patrol by bad-guy insurgents who exploited some engineering weakness. The US Navy would not have abandoned the whole idea of Nimitz/Ford-class aircraft carriers after that. They would have corrected the design problem and continued building them.

The concept of another Death Star in ROTJ was logical enough. It just wasn't ideal from a storytelling POV.


In the early stages of developing ROTJ they were considering other ending locations. The other big contender was (the idea that eventually became) Coruscant. But Lucas vetoed it because of costs. He figured the idea would call for a huge soundstage set, tons of extras, vehicles, etc. With Jabba's sail barge & Sarlacc, all the Endor stuff . . . they already had a huge movie on their hands.

With a second DS + its shield base on Endor, that helped keep everybody in the same area for the ending of the movie. If the final Luke/Vader/Palpatine showdown had taken place in Coruscant then what would everybody else be doing? It didn't really make sense for the rebels to be blowing up the capital city/planet. They could have been attacking a smaller Imperial stronghold, but it woudn't create much linkage to what's happening with Luke/Vader/Palpatine.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

I saw all three OT films during their initial theatrical runs in 1977, 1980 and 1983. ROTJ specifically on opening day (see below). When Vader's shuttle departed the Star Destroyer and headed for the DS 2, my FIRST thought was: "So... the Empire salvaged the Death Star debris from ANH, and are rebuilding it?"

View attachment 1774438

I was 6yo in 83 when I saw ROTJ and I also thought for years that the second Death Star was what was left from the first. I couldn't read at the time, so it wasn't until I got back into SW in 93 that I went "Ohhhhhh!"

 

[Captain Dunsel]

I saw all three OT films during their initial theatrical runs in 1977, 1980 and 1983. ROTJ specifically on opening day (see below). When Vader's shuttle departed the Star Destroyer and headed for the DS 2, my FIRST thought was: "So... the Empire salvaged the Death Star debris from ANH, and are rebuilding it?"

View attachment 1774438

I thought the exact same things when I saw this photo, prior to the film opening, back when I was around 8 years old.

“Huh, I guess Luke’s shot didn’t blow the entire thing up, after all….”

 

[Malibu139]

I was 10 for ROTJ. I don’t remember what I thought about death-Star 2, but I love hearing folks reminiscing on what they perceived at a younger age. One of my favorite things now is to talk to my kids about what their perceptions of things ( movies, shows , trips) when they were younger.

 

[blewis17]

I mean, it wasn't a goofy idea for the Empire to build a second DS.

Imagine if the USS Nimitz had been destroyed during its first patrol by bad-guy insurgents who exploited some engineering weakness. The US Navy would not have abandoned the whole idea of Nimitz/Ford-class aircraft carriers after that. They would have corrected the design problem and continued building them.

The concept of another Death Star in ROTJ was logical enough. It just wasn't ideal from a storytelling POV.

The ROTJ Sketchbook from the time shows a concept of 2 simultaneous new Death Stars.

And within the SW timeline, the DS2 would have been under construction even before the DS1 was "fully operational" correct?
There are arguments on both sides.

I felt that TFA would have made a little more sense if we would have learned the ANH DS was the prototype for the DS2, and SK base on the planet Ilum was at the opposite end of the spectrum, with the First Order using that research to incorporate the superpower laser into the heart of a planet . Although, if you THINK about it: SK base was able to pull dark energy from its own sun, then channel it into multiple beams that were fired through a hyperspace tunnel until they reached their intended targets.

But SK base was a planet and therefore still "stationary" when compared with the hyperspace capability of the mechanical DS1 and DS2, and therefore ALWAYS open for attack. Because you always knew where it was, and it couldn't "run away."

But then TROS had to go and put all of that power into Star Destroyers and really screw the pooch story-wise.

 

[batguy]

The DS concept had already been run to its natural endpoint in the OT.

"Starkiller Base" was the kind of junk idea mashup that you'd expect from an AI-generated Star Wars movie. A planet + a Death Star? Did they think about this at all? That's two potent ideas and it sounds cool for about 4 seconds - and then you realize it makes no goddamn sense.

 

[Joek3rr]

You know, when you really objectively think about the Star Wars Saga, a lot of subsequent lower tier storytelling rests on the shoulders of The Empire Strikes Back.

The saga really has been running on the remaining fumes of a tank that was last filled in 1980 and subsequent stories that never were the equal of that one film. Pretty amazing.

It's the film that turned Star Wars on it's head. It took from being a Flash Gordon inspired action serial, to a mythic Greek tragedy and family drama. The entire franchise truly exists today because of that film above all the others.

 

[batguy]

It's the film that turned Star Wars on it's head. It took from being a Flash Gordon inspired action serial, to a mythic Greek tragedy and family drama. The entire franchise truly exists today because of that film above all the others.

Yes.

ANH was a great iconic blockbuster movie. But so was 'Titanic.'

ESB made Star Wars into a full-blown franchise. That wasn't a given just because ANH was a big hit.

 

[blewis17]

The DS concept had already been run to its natural endpoint in the OT.

"Starkiller Base" was the kind of junk idea mashup that you'd expect from an AI-generated Star Wars movie. A planet + a Death Star? Did they think about this at all? That's two potent ideas and it sounds cool for about 4 seconds - and then you realize it makes no goddamn sense.

 

[blewis17]

Yes.

ANH was a great iconic blockbuster movie. But so was 'Titanic.'

ESB made Star Wars into a full-blown franchise. That wasn't a given just because ANH was a big hit.

6 yeas later walking out of ROTJ in 1983, I felt it was a good run. A mostly satisfying ending to a space fantasy series.

I've often thought: what if there were NO Original Trilogy? Only Star Wars? Would we still be talking about it today?

 

[Treadwell]

I've often thought: what if there were NO Original Trilogy? Only Star Wars? Would we still be talking about it today?

a thousand times yes!

 

[Metaluna mutant]

6 yeas later walking out of ROTJ in 1983, I felt it was a good run. A mostly satisfying ending to a space fantasy series.

I've often thought: what if there were NO Original Trilogy? Only Star Wars? Would we still be talking about it today?

I've always imagined that if SW77 was just a mediocre success, not enough to have any sequels, etc, decades later people would realize what an incredibly slick piece of filmmaking it actually was and re-appraise it to be far higher, like so many "Cult" films.

I also believe that if SW had been a flop, or just broke even and had not become the cultural phenomenon it became, Lucas would have fully changed to what, I think, his real passion was: Physically making films. Not directing or writing films, but developing cutting edge film making tech and techniques. Digital film, use of Green screen sets , CGI, etc. His long quest to replace the grind of editing physical film with digital editing is a good example as well as Dykstra's computer controlled camera etc.

 

[batguy]

I've always imagined that if SW77 was just a mediocre success, not enough to have any sequels, etc, decades later people would realize what an incredibly slick piece of filmmaking it actually was and re-appraise it to be far higher, like so many "Cult" films.

I also believe that if SW had been a flop, or just broke even and had not become the cultural phenomenon it became, Lucas would have fully changed to what, I think, his real passion was: Physically making films. Not directing or writing films, but developing cutting edge film making tech and techniques. Digital film, use of Green screen sets , CGI, etc. His long quest to replace the grind of editing physical film with digital editing is a good example as well as Dykstra's computer controlled camera etc.

Probably true.

If there had not been sequels then ANH would definitely been remembered in a different way than it is now. They would identify it much more strongly as an homage to Buck Rogers & Flash Gorden and less of its own thing.

The prevailing opinion would probably be that it shouldn't get sequels/reboots/etc. ANH was a beautiful perfect case of one-and-done. The characters & situations were not complicated. The major issues were resolved at the end.


Darth Vader was still alive at the end?
Umm . . . what's your point?

In 1977 the average (adult) viewer probably brushed off Vader's survival as a nod to the Republic TV serial roots of the movie, like the opening crawl. It was the equivalent of a modern MCU post-credit scene. BTTF ended with Marty & Jennifer & Doc Brown flying off to 2015 but they had no sequel plans. Skeletor said "I'll be back!" at the end of the Dolph Lundgren He-Man flick (spoiler: he didn't come back). Those teasers were cheap B-movie gags. It didn't really mean the stories were unfinished and needed to continue.

 

[pm07]

Director Sharmeen Obaid-Chinoy on the upcoming New Jedi Order movie “I’m very thrilled about the project because I feel what we’re about to create is something very special. And we’re in 2024 now, and it’s about time that we had a woman come forward to shape a story in a galaxy far, far away.”

I guess Bryce Dallas Howard and Deborah Chow did nothing to help shape the galaxy?

 

[Joek3rr]

Director Sharmeen Obaid-Chinoy on the upcoming New Jedi Order movie “I’m very thrilled about the project because I feel what we’re about to create is something very special. And we’re in 2024 now, and it’s about time that we had a woman come forward to shape a story in a galaxy far, far away.”

I guess Bryce Dallas Howard and Deborah Chow did nothing to help shape the galaxy?

They're also very ignorantly ignoring the women authors of Star Wars. And how about women comic artists?

 

[Joek3rr]

Probably true.

If there had not been sequels then ANH would definitely been remembered in a different way than it is now. They would identify it much more strongly as an homage to Buck Rogers & Flash Gorden and less of its own thing.

The prevailing opinion would probably be that it shouldn't get sequels/reboots/etc. ANH was a beautiful perfect case of one-and-done. The characters & situations were not complicated. The major issues were resolved at the end.


Darth Vader was still alive at the end?
Umm . . . what's your point?

In 1977 the average (adult) viewer probably brushed off Vader's survival as a nod to the Republic TV serial roots of the movie, like the opening crawl. It was the equivalent of a modern MCU post-credit scene. BTTF ended with Marty & Jennifer & Doc Brown flying off to 2015 but they had no sequel plans. Skeletor said "I'll be back!" at the end of the Dolph Lundgren He-Man flick (spoiler: he didn't come back). Those teasers were cheap B-movie gags. It didn't really mean the stories were unfinished and needed to continue.

Also in those days, the slightly open ended serial with the villain getting away. Was kinda meant to get kid's imaginations going. You with your toys created the sequels.

 

[batguy]

Don't you guys know the rules?

No woman has never had a substantial role/job/contribution in Hollywood before. Whoever does it in 2024 is the first one.

And when it happens again in 2025, the 2024 example will be retconned out. The latest example becomes the first time.

Every time is always the first time. That's how it works now.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

They're also very ignorantly ignoring the women authors of Star Wars. And how about women comic artists?

A.C. Crispin (Han Solo Trilogy) and Karen Traviss (Republic Commando) wrote two of my favorite SW book series. Either of those are 100 times better than what has come out of Disney SW.