How was Vader's helmet modified from ANH to ESB to ROTJ

[Darth Africanus]

Great info guys

Pleasure man glad you enjoying it!

 

[Halliwax]

Pleasure man glad you enjoying it!

Seriously learned a lot by this thread.

 

[Darth Africanus]

Alright y to continue with the time line

so Star Wars was a huge success and Darth Vader becomes an Icon
the Icon we all know and love

So a mold of the original ANH screen used helmet was molded
The Baker mold in the USA spawns a helmet cast used by Lucas film to promote star wars
Kermit Eller an employee of Don post studios don's the Vader suite wearing helmets from this mold
and the original screen used ANH helmet lands in the hands of a private french collector

Now in 1979 ESB production starts I believe
The Mold called the UK mold is still at the UK production studio Where ILM
makes most of the props for star wars if im correct

This UK mold is a exact copy of the original screen used ANH helmet
it has the three 3m apple tabs still on top of the mask crown
as well as much of the original details found on the Original screen used ANH helmet
small chin vent triangle etc

the Dome is also a copy of the ANH but there might have been
a cast made of the ANH dome modified by the ILM crew
and then Molded as the ESB/ROTJ domes

where this new modified dome was bit shorter in the skirt of the dome
the dome skirt was sanded smaller than the ANH dome skirt
and the center strip was made wider by a small amount than the ANH strip
and the ANH sharp widows peak was cut back/sanded to give it a flat look
and the Y crease of the ANH dome was left in the ESB dome only a little
and the indentation of the center strip as well

The mask came out and ANH mask out of the mold
the ESB crew cut out a wider and bigger chin vent by hand
so Prowse could see better and for air flow
the lenses were changed to a bronzish tinge clear
the mask was cleaned up some what made smoother,sharper etc

Below is an illustration to show what happened to get the new ESB helmet for Vader
Purple line is the widening of the center strip it was made marginal wider and softer
over the ANH strip

Red line was the dome skirt sanding it thinner
I believe the ESB dome was sanded abit shorter in the dome flange from the bottom
but Im in two minds personally that all movie domes were ANH domes with the
changes of the wider dome strip for ESB/ROTJ and the thinner skirt
as well as dome flare correction

Green is the dome flare was brought a bit more inward
it was brought more inwards on Vader's right side our left looking straight on

and then the wider bottom chin vent cut out on the mask

Sharp widows peak sanded/cut back and made flat
View attachment 1292314

Further the ESB crew added a new dome mounting mechanism
on top of the mask crown and inside the dome
this mech was a PVC ring with a smaller diameter ring on top of the mask crown
and a larger diameter ring that fits over the smaller ring inside the dome
the mask also received a piece of Velcro on the forehead
with the connecting piece of Velcro inside the dome for a firmer dome mount
so the dome doesn't fly off like it sometimes did in ANH because of the flimsy 3m tab connection

Because of the new dome mounting mech the ESB dome was also more raised up and sat abit higher
over the nose of vaders mask the dome did not sit so low on vaders nose like in ANH

The tusks sensors on the end of the tusks for the mask remained the same as the ANH mask
only thing is both tusk sensors where silver not like in ANH where the left side one was half blackish
with splotched paint
the mesh inside the mask vent's also changed over ANH in the ESB helmet

and lastly the Mask and Dome was painted smooth with an automotive grade paint
mask was still an alternate color of gloss black and metallic gunmetal grey
only now in ESB it had a sort of polished showroom finish but not perfect finish was still orange peely etc

as well as the dome was painted in a gloss black automotive paint
polished smooth yet not perfect mirror shine smooth
had orange peel and defects in paint job

So the ESB helmet

below is the stunt mask it had a few major differences over the hero ESB mask that I will address
bit latter on

Bit to get the idea of what im taking about one can clearly see the ESB
round PVC dome mount
larger chin vent
etc over the ANH helmet
and new smooth paint job

View attachment 1292332

View attachment 1292331

Next I will post on the ROTJ helmet
But from here it is where things get tricky as I don't want to begin arguments !
So for the production of ESB a few helmets were cast from the UK mold for the production
so they started off ANH and were converted by hand to ESB by the crew as described above
im not sure how many helmets were made I can not say as I have not definitive information on this myself

But off these set amount of helmets made some become Hero helmets worn by Powse as seen in most of ESB
one becomes the blown Luke dark side cave helmet
One became the weird ANH mask / ESB dome helmet seen in the beginning of the movie when vader storms echo base
and one became the stunt helmet used by Bob Anderson for the fight scenes

Now after production they rmade a mold of a ESB helmet and from this they cast
the few ROTJ helmet's used in production for ROTJ

I will go more in details on this next post
But that is the gist of it
as well there were ESB helmets made for touring and promoting purposes but on those I don't know alot of info
perhaps someone can chime in with more details

Alright on to the ROTJ helmet info this section will be short as
it is basically the culmination of All that has happened to the ANH helmet
and made perfect in the ROTJ helmet

The ROTJ is basically in my opinion what Vader's helmet was supposed to look like from the beginning
but that is just me I love the ANH helmet and ESB helmet just as much lol

Ok so im not sure when the date for the start of ROTJ production was.
but im taking it was in the 1980's

So once production commences the crew from ILM supposedly made a mold of the ESB helmet
and then casted a handful of ROTJ helmets Hero helmets

the Fat lip stunt helmet seen in the emperors throne room was a stunt helmet made for ESB
but used in ROTJ or so most evidence would point or logic would dictate

I have my own thoughts on this and will share further on another page my own thought's and
assumption's etc

Ok so a handful of ROTJ helmets are cast they look almost identical to ESB helmets
except for

The Rotj Mask was further cleaned up made smooth
sanded sharp etc

The ROTJ Mask looks to have larger eyes than the ESB and ANH mask
yet it is not so it is merely the gloss black paint on the underside of the upper eyelid
of the eyes in contrast with the silver on top of the eyelid that gives this appearance
the eyes are same size as all other masks since they come from one mold the UK mold original

the silver inside the nose is painted after the black silver on the mask

the bottom chin vent was further enlarged from the ESB chin vent
the tusk sensors on the mask (silver metalic objects on the end of the face tubes)
where pointed at the tip and not round like the ESB and ANH sensors

Lenses are clear amber/bronzish in color with the yellow foam on the inside of the mask
giving it a sort of gold amber bonze look

the mesh is a sort of expanded metal mesh in the mouth vent's

Also the PVC dome mount is also found on top of the mask
to connect to the dome

and a piece of Velcro stuck to the forehead to connect to the dome for
extra stability

The dome is almost identical to the ESB vader dome
except for
the center strip on the dome is bit wider still over the esb center strip
the ILM crew probably added bit of putty/bondo to make it wider

Aswell the thumbprint/indentation found in the widows peak
that was left over from the ANH dome that carried over to ESB was filled in sanded smooth
and flat

it is believed the ROTJ dome already existed back in 1979 If I have it correct
so the dome would probably just have had to be molded and cast

Lastly Dome and Mask was painted in the same color and make of automotive paint
as the ESB helmet polished smooth and shiny but not showroom perfect it had paint
defects

there where various helmets used in ROTJ
and they mixed and matched domes and masks it seems

and I believe they mixed and matched Rotj domes with ESB masks and vice a versa

There are scenes in the movie one can see that ESB helmets were used
the reveal scene when Vader asks Luke to take off his mask it is an ESB helmet

And there was the unique Rotj Reveal helmet aswell

There is a photo where the ILM crew poses with ROTJ helmets
and it's only the helmet with the flat dome mount that is a screen used

The others with long slender PVC tubes for dome mount's were touring/promotion helmets

Now as well the ROTJ Dome sat bit higher on the face mask exposing more of the eyebrows and forehead
of the mask giving vader more of a surprised look

Now one thing im adding is that I believe and this is my opinion is they must have either removed the old ESB
dome mount from an ESB helmet and then placed a new ROTJ mount on them and then casted the mask
for If they just casted a ESB mask with the ESB dome mount ontop the Dome in rotj would have had the same spacing
as in ESB it would not have looked like the ROTJ spacing because the rotj dome mount mist be higher than the ESB to
get the ROTJ spacing of the dome or that is my own assumption perhaps someone can add to this

You can also see the reveal helmet and the ROTJ stunt had a diamond patterned shaped
mesh behind the expanded metal mesh
the reveal had this diamond patterned mesh behind both main meshes on the chin and mouth vent
the Stunt only had it on the mouth vent

Ok so that is basically it For the history of the ANH/ESB/ROTJ helmets and how they differ from all the info
I could gather on my own is it perfect no its not there is much more I don't know off
or that I forgot to mention now I will be writing up info I forgot or just interesting thoughts and
info that can hopefully add to the story

 

[Halliwax]

Alright on to the ROTJ helmet info this section will be short as
it is basically the culmination of All that has happened to the ANH helmet
and made perfect in the ROTJ helmet

The ROTJ is basically in my opinion what Vader's helmet was supposed to look like from the beginning
but that is just me I love the ANH helmet and ESB helmet just as much lol

Ok so im not sure when the date for the start of ROTJ production was.
but im taking it was in the 1980's

So once production commences the crew from ILM supposedly made a mold of the ESB helmet
and then casted a handful of ROTJ helmets Hero helmets

the Fat lip stunt helmet seen in the emperors throne room was a stunt helmet made for ESB
but used in ROTJ or so most evidence would point or logic would dictate

I have my own thoughts on this and will share further on another page my own thought's and
assumption's etc

Ok so a handful of ROTJ helmets are cast they look almost identical to ESB helmets
except for

The Rotj Mask was further cleaned up made smooth
sanded sharp etc

The ROTJ Mask looks to have larger eyes than the ESB and ANH mask
yet it is not so it is merely the gloss black paint on the underside of the upper eyelid
of the eyes in contrast with the silver on top of the eyelid that gives this appearance
the eyes are same size as all other masks since they come from one mold the UK mold original

the silver inside the nose is painted after the black silver on the mask

the bottom chin vent was further enlarged from the ESB chin vent
the tusk sensors on the mask (silver metalic objects on the end of the face tubes)
where pointed at the tip and not round like the ESB and ANH sensors

Lenses are clear amber/bronzish in color with the yellow foam on the inside of the mask
giving it a sort of gold amber bonze look

the mesh is a sort of expanded metal mesh in the mouth vent's

Also the PVC dome mount is also found on top of the mask
to connect to the dome

and a piece of Velcro stuck to the forehead to connect to the dome for
extra stability

The dome is almost identical to the ESB vader dome
except for
the center strip on the dome is bit wider still over the esb center strip
the ILM crew probably added bit of putty/bondo to make it wider

Aswell the thumbprint/indentation found in the widows peak
that was left over from the ANH dome that carried over to ESB was filled in sanded smooth
and flat

it is believed the ROTJ dome already existed back in 1979 If I have it correct
so the dome would probably just have had to be molded and cast

Lastly Dome and Mask was painted in the same color and make of automotive paint
as the ESB helmet polished smooth and shiny but not showroom perfect it had paint
defects

there where various helmets used in ROTJ
and they mixed and matched domes and masks it seems

and I believe they mixed and matched Rotj domes with ESB masks and vice a versa

There are scenes in the movie one can see that ESB helmets were used
the reveal scene when Vader asks Luke to take off his mask it is an ESB helmet

But the proper reveal mask is a unique rotj mask It was painted
metallic gunmetal first and then the gloss black was added
it had no clear coat and was purely polished to shine

There is a photo where the ILM crew poses with ROTJ helmets
and it's only the helmet with the flat dome mount that is a screen used

The others with long slender PVC tubes for dome mount's were touring/promotion helmets

Now as well the ROTJ Dome sat bit higher on the face mask exposing more of the eyebrows and forehead
of the mask giving vader more of a surprised look

Now one thing im adding is that I believe and this is my opinion is they must have either removed the old ESB
dome mount from an ESB helmet and then placed a new ROTJ mount on them and then casted the mask
for If they just casted a ESB mask with the ESB dome mount ontop the Dome in rotj would have had the same spacing
as in ESB it would not have looked like the ROTJ spacing because the rotj dome mount mist be higher than the ESB to
get the ROTJ spacing of the dome or that is my own assumption perhaps someone can add to this

View attachment 1292923

View attachment 1292924

View attachment 1292925

You can also see the reveal helmet and the ROTJ stunt had a diamond patterned shaped
mesh behind the expanded metal mesh
the reveal had this diamond patterned mesh behind both main meshes on the chin and mouth vent
the Stunt only had it on the mouth vent

View attachment 1292926

Ok so that is basically it For the history of the ANH/ESB/ROTJ helmets and how they differ from all the info
I could gather on my own is it perfect no its not there is much more I don't know off
or that I forgot to mention now I will be writing up info I forgot or just interesting thoughts and
info that can hopefully add to the story

Great info!!

 

[Darth Africanus]

Great info!!

Thanks man hopefully it was all clear and understandable

 

[Halliwax]

Thanks man hopefully it was all clear and understandable

Seriously appreciate you focusing this all into 1 thread. I’ve heard the differences, but not all at once or in the same place so it’s easy to forget

 

[Darth Africanus]

Seriously appreciate you focusing this all into 1 thread. I’ve heard the differences, but not all at once or in the same place so it’s easy to forget

Indeed it was all scattered in threads starting out nice then everyone fighting or it was so fragmented in threads long dead

Hopefully this continues to grow I will still go over all I have read and ad bits I missed out and so on lots of vader fans out there that would love to find info on Vaders helmet in one easy place

 

[Halliwax]

Indeed it was all scattered in threads starting out nice then everyone fighting or it was so fragmented in threads long dead

Hopefully this continues to grow I will still go over all I have read and ad bits I missed out and so on lots of vader fans out there that would love to find info on Vaders helmet in one easy place

Wicked!

 

[Zenwalker]

So what is the consensus on the C-scar (but don't want to open a can of worms here). I know some time ago there was an argument that it was not on the original castings and was rather a paint app. / flaw.

I have both the eFX Legend and the CFO Helmet and neither have the C-scar.

 

[dcarty]

So what is the consensus on the C-scar (but don't want to open a can of worms here). I know some time ago there was an argument that it was not on the original castings and was rather a paint app. / flaw.

I have both the eFX Legend and the CFO Helmet and neither have the C-scar.

The physical artifacts that comprise the C-scar were removed from efx along with much of the surface detail of the casting. CFO, I believe, uses a 20th Century casting as the source of their Vader helmet which does not have that detail present.

 

[Halliwax]

So what is the consensus on the C-scar (but don't want to open a can of worms here). I know some time ago there was an argument that it was not on the original castings and was rather a paint app. / flaw.

I have both the eFX Legend and the CFO Helmet and neither have the C-scar.

 

[GINO]

Just want to chime in here and say that a lot of the info stated in here is not accurate. Not saying it to start a fuss, I'm only saying this so that it isn't confused as 'fact' by a future someone searching for answers and then repeating incorrect info later. I don't have the time at the moment to go line by line and correct each incorrect item but maybe at some point when I get some free time I will.

 

[Kroenen77]

"But the proper reveal mask is a unique rotj mask It was painted
metallic gunmetal first and then the gloss black was added
it had no clear coat and was purely polished to shine "

No.The masks are painted black first and the ROTJ Reveal is not polished to shine.The ROTS Reveal is only black and shiny.
Another point is that they removed the "worms" for the ROTJ masks that are casting defects from the ESB mold.

And PLEASE: No C-Scar discussion again!

 

[dcarty]

I'm glad we're trying to get all of this information into one location -- but we're still a work in progress and a lot of what is there is speculation -- informed speculation but speculation nonetheless. Here are some corrections I would suggest for the ANH portion of the write up (corrections noted in bold):

Production for ANH starts Mr Muir using a cast of David Prowse Shoulders and head
sculpts a face mask in clay over David Prowse plaster cast using a small side sketch of Vader's helmet provide by John Mollo.

The Mask is sculpted Asymmetrically giving Vader that perfect organic real look not that weird look of the Rots. The tusks on the side of the mask was sculpted after the Mask and then added onto the mask by Mr Muir as well as two tear ducts beneath each eye in the shape of a half moon. This is not quite correct – tusk tubes were sculpted on the sides of the face mask during the initial sculpt. What Mr Muir did, at John Barry’s request, was lengthen the tips of the tubes by about ¼” so that they extended past the bottom “lip” rather than being flush with it. “In the Shadow of Vader” pp 24-5

then he sculpt's in clay the dome on top of the face mask after this the helmet(mask and dome) is casted in plaster and is further Refined and sharpened by Mr Muir

Again, this is not quite correct. The timeline on this is that Mr Muir finished the faceplate in clay which was then given to the plasterer’s who pulled a mold and cast a plaster copy of the faceplate. Mr Muir then sculpted the dome of the helmet in clay on top of this plaster casting. Once the dome was complete it too was copied and then Mr Muir used the plaster copies to sharpen their lines and prep them for final casting. At this point the helmet was complete and fiberglass pieces were created. “In the Shadow of Vader” pp 24-5

from there it is taken by other members part of the ANH production and then further refined by them

Not sure what you mean by this. There is no evidence that I am aware of, nor have I ever seen anyone else credited for work on the sculpt of the helmet, that anyone did anything to Mr Muir’s work once he completed it. What refinements are you saying were made or is this the finishing phase of the helmet where it is trimmed, painted, and the parts installed?

Dome and Mask is then molded and casted in fiberglass ( 3 helmets are made for ANH Only one is used onscreen in the movie)

(This is incorrect, please see timeline comments above)

That's all I have for the ANH production helmet. I'll follow up with observations about ESB and RotJ as well.

Cheers,

Dave

 

[vader45]

The physical artifacts that comprise the C-scar were removed from efx along with much of the surface detail of the casting. CFO, I believe, uses a 20th Century casting as the source of their Vader helmet which does not have that detail present.

CFO comes off a production made cast from the UK mold.

 

[dcarty]

CFO comes off a production made cast from the UK mold.

That's right -- the GS helmet. Thank you for reminding me! Their earlier casting is from a 20th Century helmet (the one that belonged to Darth Stone). That said, the C-scar cheek of the GS helmet was accidentally altered by its owner who attempted to strip it and in doing so damaged the casting.

 

[vader45]

That's right -- the GS helmet. Thank you for reminding me! Their earlier casting is from a 20th Century helmet (the one that belonged to Darth Stone). That said, the C-scar cheek of the GS helmet was accidentally altered by its owner who attempted to strip it and in doing so damaged the casting.

It even has the casting worm the TM has. Proves the GS was cast during Empire production.

 

[dcarty]

It even has the casting worm the TM has. Proves the GS was cast during Empire production.

Absolutely true, not arguing its provenance at all. Just pointing out, to Zenwalker's question, why the helmets do not have physical evidence of the C-scar. For reasons unique to both castings (20th C and GS) the physical traces were removed before CFO had the opportunity to make them available to us.

 

[Darth Africanus]

Just want to chime in here and say that a lot of the info stated in here is not accurate. Not saying it to start a fuss, I'm only saying this so that it isn't confused as 'fact' by a future someone searching for answers and then repeating incorrect info later. I don't have the time at the moment to go line by line and correct each incorrect item but maybe at some point when I get some free time I will.

Awesome Gino im glad you can chime in.
Yes everyone has to understand I make no claime as what I put down as fact's its what I found and I wrote down from memory
off of readings threads starting from the early 2000's to now and there was almost never agreement on what is factual and what is not
so I just gave my best input according to what I remeber as the consensus on something.
But if it's wrong its wrong simple and it has to change to be more factual then so it shall be

"But the proper reveal mask is a unique rotj mask It was painted
metallic gunmetal first and then the gloss black was added
it had no clear coat and was purely polished to shine "

No.The masks are painted black first and the ROTJ Reveal is not polished to shine.The ROTS Reveal is only black and shiny.
Another point is that they removed the "worms" for the ROTJ masks that are casting defects from the ESB mold.

And PLEASE: No C-Scar discussion again!

Yes please no bog down fighting over a C-scar
Intresting I had it that it was painted grey first then black
thanks Kroenen77 Also was given the impresion that it had not clear coat and just polished
as the other helmets but if that is not the case it shall be changed since you are the expert on the reveal far more than me =)

I'm glad we're trying to get all of this information into one location -- but we're still a work in progress and a lot of what is there is speculation -- informed speculation but speculation nonetheless. Here are some corrections I would suggest for the ANH portion of the write up (corrections noted in bold):

Production for ANH starts Mr Muir using a cast of David Prowse Shoulders and head
sculpts a face mask in clay over David Prowse plaster cast using a small side sketch of Vader's helmet provide by John Mollo.

The Mask is sculpted Asymmetrically giving Vader that perfect organic real look not that weird look of the Rots. The tusks on the side of the mask was sculpted after the Mask and then added onto the mask by Mr Muir as well as two tear ducts beneath each eye in the shape of a half moon. This is not quite correct – tusk tubes were sculpted on the sides of the face mask during the initial sculpt. What Mr Muir did, at John Barry’s request, was lengthen the tips of the tubes by about ¼” so that they extended past the bottom “lip” rather than being flush with it. “In the Shadow of Vader” pp 24-5

then he sculpt's in clay the dome on top of the face mask after this the helmet(mask and dome) is casted in plaster and is further Refined and sharpened by Mr Muir

Again, this is not quite correct. The timeline on this is that Mr Muir finished the faceplate in clay which was then given to the plasterer’s who pulled a mold and cast a plaster copy of the faceplate. Mr Muir then sculpted the dome of the helmet in clay on top of this plaster casting. Once the dome was complete it too was copied and then Mr Muir used the plaster copies to sharpen their lines and prep them for final casting. At this point the helmet was complete and fiberglass pieces were created. “In the Shadow of Vader” pp 24-5

from there it is taken by other members part of the ANH production and then further refined by them

Not sure what you mean by this. There is no evidence that I am aware of, nor have I ever seen anyone else credited for work on the sculpt of the helmet, that anyone did anything to Mr Muir’s work once he completed it. What refinements are you saying were made or is this the finishing phase of the helmet where it is trimmed, painted, and the parts installed?

Dome and Mask is then molded and casted in fiberglass ( 3 helmets are made for ANH Only one is used onscreen in the movie)

(This is incorrect, please see timeline comments above)

That's all I have for the ANH production helmet. I'll follow up with observations about ESB and RotJ as well.

Cheers,

Dave

Awesome Dave thanks again for the amazing input will change the info accordingly.
Glad you can provide better information most info I got was before Mr Muir releashed his book
and I don't poses the book so thank you so much for sharing the info

By the refinement's I meant prepping helmet for painting,adding the foam and inside the mask
the small things the crew did to get the helmet/mask ready for filming see now I should have been more specific on that

 

[Darth Africanus]

Alright awesome Im glad to see all the chime ins Thanks guys very much appreciated

But just a broad statement from me, In no way am I claiming that what im saying is factual by any means
I was not at the production nor was anyone I know.So I can not say what is truth and what is not regarding the Vader helmet

I only gave down what I remembered from reading many many threads.My memory is not immune to fault's
and also my thread isn't immune to human error I know some have a great passion for vader and not because they have
a bad personality or such can get bit upset if they see wrong information around Vader or so

Im just putting this down all rember we do this to have fun not to be serious scientific lectures on the subject of Vader
it is at the end of the day a crappy made glob of fiberglass that somehow most of us pray to like its an altar lol

It is a deeply personal subject for most who grew up enthralled by our favorite movie character ever

But please remember we are not here to fight,disagreements happen and others might not agree with you that is life

Im fine to be wrong and to make mistakes in putting down incorrect things that is how you learn what is right
by going over information again to make sure that the info I got was correct from the source I got it and that means what I wrote down is as how somebody els already said it it's not my believes or statement's its what I saw

so gladly share information and help in getting the info as correct so everyone of us who reads can be happy
but please do not get personal or fight as history has shown Vader things devolve into is all im asking

Again thanks for the info everyone I highly appreciated all inputs it makes
me glad to see people passionate about the same glob of fiberglass as myself