Nope. lost it in the divorce she put everything a storage locker and never told me, then the owner sold it all for 350. I had 8 grand worth of studio scale donar kits plus firearms. all bad juju
How was Vader's helmet modified from ANH to ESB to ROTJ
- Thread starter Darth Africanus
- Start date
Darth Africanus
Sr Member
Very Unfortunate man hate to hear such news but i guess it's always best just to forget such things and
move on
Darth Africanus
Sr Member
Well I return to this thread today since lock down has most of us locked in an pretty bored
Im going to try and put out a Time line of basically the Vader helmet story from research I made
would love to hear input from other Vader collectors but this is how I believe it all went down
The path of Vader's helmet as I have it to my knowledge as follows
Production for ANH starts Mr Muir using a cast of David Prowse Shoulders and head
sculpts a face mask in clay over David Prowse plaster cast using a small side sketch of Vader's helmet
provide by John Mollo.After the mask is completed in clay it is then molded and cast in plaster.
The Mask is sculpted Asymmetrically giving Vader that perfect organic real look
not that weird look of the Rots
"the tusk tubes were sculpted on the sides of the face mask during the initial sculpt. What Mr Muir did, at John Barry’s request, was lengthen the tips of the tubes by about ¼” so that they extended past the bottom “lip” rather than being flush with it. “In the Shadow of Vader” pp 24-5(Thanks Dave)
by Mr Muir as well as two tear ducts beneath each eye in the shape of a half moon
"Mr Muir finished the faceplate in clay which was then given to the plasterer’s who pulled a mold and cast a plaster copy of the faceplate. Mr Muir then sculpted the dome of the helmet in clay on top of this plaster casting. Once the dome was complete it too was copied and then Mr Muir used the plaster copies to sharpen their lines and prep them for final casting. At this point the helmet was complete and fiberglass pieces were created. “In the Shadow of Vader” pp 24-5"(Thanks Dave )
from there it is taken by other members part of the ANH production
and then further refined by them meaning prepping and painting of dome and mask adding
acrylic lenses to mask as well as the metallic mesh behind the mouth vent
and the foam on the inside of the mask as well as cuting out by hand the bottom chin vent
( 3 helmets are made for ANH Only one is used onscreen in the movie)
The mask is smooth on top of the crown and receives three 3M Apple connector tabs on top of the crown
that connects to three 3M tabs on the inside of the dome that is mounted on a spacer inside the dome
The mask has foam padding on the inside and 3 elastic bands used to hold the mask to Prows face
the eye lenses is a clear color ( not red)
and the bottom chin triangle is small
The Dome Has a sharp widows peak area
with a indentation and the dome flange area or skirt is thick
The dome sits very low on the ANH mask giving it a nice angry look
the dome center stripe is sharp and quite thin
Both mask and dome is painted gloss black with an automotive gloss black
the mask doesn't pick well up on camera and the mask is painted quickly
with an metallic grey in an alternating pattern by hand with a paint brush
The black cheek has an indentation in the shape of a C called a Cscar
After ANH production The Helmet is molded in two different molds a US mold (known as the Rick Baker Mold)this mold spawns
helmet's used only for promotion and touring purposes of Darth Vader in the US to promote the release of the movie
Helmet's coming from the US baker mold in fandom is
SL
DJ
EFX
The other mold is known as the UK Mold this mold spawns casts used to make the ESB screen helmet and Rotj screen helmet
Here is where most authentic cast helmets originate from as well from cast's of the UK cast etc
The Casts all start out as perfect copies of the Original screen used ANH Dome and Mask
the mask retains the 3M tab in the new cast's and surface details from the original ANH mask
Uk casts in fandom are
TM
GS/CFO
TD
How the UK cast made ESB and ROTJ helmets to follow
Im going to try and put out a Time line of basically the Vader helmet story from research I made
would love to hear input from other Vader collectors but this is how I believe it all went down
The path of Vader's helmet as I have it to my knowledge as follows
Production for ANH starts Mr Muir using a cast of David Prowse Shoulders and head
sculpts a face mask in clay over David Prowse plaster cast using a small side sketch of Vader's helmet
provide by John Mollo.After the mask is completed in clay it is then molded and cast in plaster.
The Mask is sculpted Asymmetrically giving Vader that perfect organic real look
not that weird look of the Rots
"the tusk tubes were sculpted on the sides of the face mask during the initial sculpt. What Mr Muir did, at John Barry’s request, was lengthen the tips of the tubes by about ¼” so that they extended past the bottom “lip” rather than being flush with it. “In the Shadow of Vader” pp 24-5(Thanks Dave)
by Mr Muir as well as two tear ducts beneath each eye in the shape of a half moon
"Mr Muir finished the faceplate in clay which was then given to the plasterer’s who pulled a mold and cast a plaster copy of the faceplate. Mr Muir then sculpted the dome of the helmet in clay on top of this plaster casting. Once the dome was complete it too was copied and then Mr Muir used the plaster copies to sharpen their lines and prep them for final casting. At this point the helmet was complete and fiberglass pieces were created. “In the Shadow of Vader” pp 24-5"(Thanks Dave )
from there it is taken by other members part of the ANH production
and then further refined by them meaning prepping and painting of dome and mask adding
acrylic lenses to mask as well as the metallic mesh behind the mouth vent
and the foam on the inside of the mask as well as cuting out by hand the bottom chin vent
( 3 helmets are made for ANH Only one is used onscreen in the movie)
The mask is smooth on top of the crown and receives three 3M Apple connector tabs on top of the crown
that connects to three 3M tabs on the inside of the dome that is mounted on a spacer inside the dome
The mask has foam padding on the inside and 3 elastic bands used to hold the mask to Prows face
the eye lenses is a clear color ( not red)
and the bottom chin triangle is small
The Dome Has a sharp widows peak area
with a indentation and the dome flange area or skirt is thick
The dome sits very low on the ANH mask giving it a nice angry look
the dome center stripe is sharp and quite thin
Both mask and dome is painted gloss black with an automotive gloss black
the mask doesn't pick well up on camera and the mask is painted quickly
with an metallic grey in an alternating pattern by hand with a paint brush
The black cheek has an indentation in the shape of a C called a Cscar
After ANH production The Helmet is molded in two different molds a US mold (known as the Rick Baker Mold)this mold spawns
helmet's used only for promotion and touring purposes of Darth Vader in the US to promote the release of the movie
Helmet's coming from the US baker mold in fandom is
SL
DJ
EFX
The other mold is known as the UK Mold this mold spawns casts used to make the ESB screen helmet and Rotj screen helmet
Here is where most authentic cast helmets originate from as well from cast's of the UK cast etc
The Casts all start out as perfect copies of the Original screen used ANH Dome and Mask
the mask retains the 3M tab in the new cast's and surface details from the original ANH mask
Uk casts in fandom are
TM
GS/CFO
TD
How the UK cast made ESB and ROTJ helmets to follow
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The new hope helmet had to be heavy and hot. the grp looks like its a half inch thick
"from there it is taken by other members part of the ANH production and then further refined by them the tusk tubes are added to the mask by them
it was not sculpted on the mask by Mr Muir "
That's interesting and the first time I've ever heard that. It's not in any of Brian Muir's accounts of the sculpting process that I've read I'm curious what's the source? If you read on Page 24 of Mr Muir's "In the Shadow of Vader" he states that, among the refinements he was asked to make before the plaster cast was made, "[John Barry] asked me to create tear ducts and extend the tubes slightly past the line of the mouth". These were details that weren't in John Mollo's drawing that he used as the basis for the sculpt. It was at about this point that he drew the location of the chin vent into the sculpt as well.
Dave
it was not sculpted on the mask by Mr Muir "
That's interesting and the first time I've ever heard that. It's not in any of Brian Muir's accounts of the sculpting process that I've read I'm curious what's the source? If you read on Page 24 of Mr Muir's "In the Shadow of Vader" he states that, among the refinements he was asked to make before the plaster cast was made, "[John Barry] asked me to create tear ducts and extend the tubes slightly past the line of the mouth". These were details that weren't in John Mollo's drawing that he used as the basis for the sculpt. It was at about this point that he drew the location of the chin vent into the sculpt as well.
Dave
Really great info!! All new to me and very well explained!! Very organized, thanks for taking the time and doing this, I appreciate it
Darth Africanus
Sr Member
Awesome Dave thank you for the input!
exactly why I made this so all the Vader helmet info can finally be in one place easily placed for all
and this goes to show how scattered all the info is I can't for the life of me remember if it was on the Den or on here will look over all the pages again to see if I can't track it down and get back to you
I read that one part im sure I read it that way but now im thinking I may have misunderstood what I was reading.
But im glad for any corrections as this is an evolving thread to get only the most factual information
in one place that the community has a consensuses on and agrees to be the correct info on vader's helmet
Will have to get that book it seems to get the finer detail on the sculpting process of the helmet
Thanks Dave!
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Darth Africanus
Sr Member
Thanks man glad to do it just want to provide something enjoyable to the Vader community
seriously man wicked info, i dont want to come off like im telingl ya how to do things. but if you could quote that post and insert it into the first post you made, that would really help other people find all that great info when they use the search box.
Darth Africanus
Sr Member
Awesome man I will do that thanks then more people can chime in and see the info
Darth Africanus
Sr Member
]Hello All hope all are good
So I have been searching the intranets for this little nugget of information
I read all threads I could find but to my surprise nowhere is it discussed in great detail what did
the prop makers at LF do to the Vader helmets from ANH to convert it to the ESB version and then from ESB to ROTJ.
I have learned a great deal such as the widows peak being trimmed
the paint finish being more smooth on ESB and ROTJ
height of the dome on the ESB and ROTJ and of course the larger chin vent on ESB,ROTJ compared to ANH
But also I wonder did they alter any physical dimensions on the mask from ANH to ESB to ROTJ?
Was the dome altered from ANH to ESB/ROTJ ?
I gather most look at screen caps and guess the detail changes and make a rough assumption that
the cheeks where made smaller on the ESB helmet.but there are those who know the dimensions and such as
they have seen production made helmets and that that information they hold is very precious
I know there are those lucky few people who have rare castings who know these things but are reluctant to share
of fear of re casters prying eyes or that their item becomes devalued because now someone can remake a helmet using those details but imo it's 2019 a long time since the scourge of heated Vader discussions of the early 2000's where very few details where shared.
and the only real person I see in the community that is untrustworthy is SPFX and imo I think it's time the community opens up about
talking and sharing the intricate details of Vader and not keep it all stored away
as I for one would like to know al the intricate details of the prop and openly discuss it and all it's nuance little details
and I will be honest I would like to know because I want to try my hand at using pre existing Vader helmet to accurize it more according to the actual prop
Hopefully my honesty doesn't kill the discussion around this topic and that it can be discussed openly and
that previously unknown information about the Vader prop helmet can be shared free lie
If not at least I tried lol
thats awesome thanks! i only say that because when this comes up in a search people tend to only read the first few comments then move on to something else not finding there answer. they will be skipping over gold if they dont follow your thread to that post, now that you have it in post 1 it helps all those "lazies"
thanks for your contribution!
Darth Africanus
Sr Member
Haha yes I know what you are saying much truth in that statement. I would always argue one should not enable the laziness but again I would also want to help those who truly seek knowledge haha
Hope I inserted it correctly not sure think I did it right
Hope I inserted it correctly not sure think I did it right
Darth Africanus
Sr Member
Alright y to continue with the time line
so Star Wars was a huge success and Darth Vader becomes an Icon
the Icon we all know and love
So a mold of the original ANH screen used helmet was molded
The Baker mold in the USA spawns a helmet cast used by Lucas film to promote star wars
Kermit Eller an employee of Don post studios don's the Vader suite wearing helmets from this mold
and the original screen used ANH helmet lands in the hands of a private french collector
Now in 1979 ESB production starts I believe
The Mold called the UK mold is still at the UK production studio Where ILM
makes most of the props for star wars if im correct
This UK mold is a exact copy of the original screen used ANH helmet
it has the three 3m apple tabs still on top of the mask crown
as well as much of the original details found on the Original screen used ANH helmet
small chin vent triangle etc
the Dome is also a copy of the ANH but there might have been
a cast made of the ANH dome modified by the ILM crew
and then Molded as the ESB/ROTJ domes
where this new modified dome was bit shorter in the skirt of the dome
the dome skirt was sanded smaller than the ANH dome skirt
and the center strip was made wider by a small amount than the ANH strip
and the ANH sharp widows peak was cut back/sanded to give it a flat look
and the Y crease of the ANH dome was left in the ESB dome only a little
and the indentation of the center strip as well
The mask came out and ANH mask out of the mold
the ESB crew cut out a wider and bigger chin vent by hand
so Prowse could see better and for air flow
the lenses were changed to a bronzish tinge clear
the mask was cleaned up some what made smoother,sharper etc
Below is an illustration to show what happened to get the new ESB helmet for Vader
Purple line is the widening of the center strip it was made marginal wider and softer
over the ANH strip
Red line was the dome skirt sanding it thinner
I believe the ESB dome was sanded abit shorter in the dome flange from the bottom
but Im in two minds personally that all movie domes were ANH domes with the
changes of the wider dome strip for ESB/ROTJ and the thinner skirt
as well as dome flare correction
Green is the dome flare was brought a bit more inward
it was brought more inwards on Vader's right side our left looking straight on
and then the wider bottom chin vent cut out on the mask
Sharp widows peak sanded/cut back and made flat
Further the ESB crew added a new dome mounting mechanism
on top of the mask crown and inside the dome
this mech was a PVC ring with a smaller diameter ring on top of the mask crown
and a larger diameter ring that fits over the smaller ring inside the dome
the mask also received a piece of Velcro on the forehead
with the connecting piece of Velcro inside the dome for a firmer dome mount
so the dome doesn't fly off like it sometimes did in ANH because of the flimsy 3m tab connection
Because of the new dome mounting mech the ESB dome was also more raised up and sat abit higher
over the nose of vaders mask the dome did not sit so low on vaders nose like in ANH
The tusks sensors on the end of the tusks for the mask remained the same as the ANH mask
only thing is both tusk sensors where silver not like in ANH where the left side one was half blackish
with splotched paint
the mesh inside the mask vent's also changed over ANH in the ESB helmet
and lastly the Mask and Dome was painted smooth with an automotive grade paint
mask was still an alternate color of gloss black and metallic gunmetal grey
only now in ESB it had a sort of polished showroom finish but not perfect finish was still orange peely etc
as well as the dome was painted in a gloss black automotive paint
polished smooth yet not perfect mirror shine smooth
had orange peel and defects in paint job
So the ESB helmet
below is the stunt mask it had a few major differences over the hero ESB mask that I will address
bit latter on
Bit to get the idea of what im taking about one can clearly see the ESB
round PVC dome mount
larger chin vent
etc over the ANH helmet
and new smooth paint job
Next I will post on the ROTJ helmet
But from here it is where things get tricky as I don't want to begin arguments !
So for the production of ESB a few helmets were cast from the UK mold for the production
so they started off ANH and were converted by hand to ESB by the crew as described above
im not sure how many helmets were made I can not say as I have not definitive information on this myself
But off these set amount of helmets made some become Hero helmets worn by Powse as seen in most of ESB
one becomes the blown Luke dark side cave helmet
One became the weird ANH mask / ESB dome helmet seen in the beginning of the movie when vader storms echo base
and one became the stunt helmet used by Bob Anderson for the fight scenes
Now after production they rmade a mold of a ESB helmet and from this they cast
the few ROTJ helmet's used in production for ROTJ
I will go more in details on this next post
But that is the gist of it
as well there were ESB helmets made for touring and promoting purposes but on those I don't know alot of info
perhaps someone can chime in with more details
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vader45
Sr Member
You said Paul Allen used the helmets for stunts.
It was Bob Anderson as Vader's stunt double. Paul Allen fabricated the Stunt helmet.
It was proven the ROTJ helmets were new casts. Brandon Alinger who wrote the costume book has stated the difference in the fiberglass work between ESB and ROTJ helmets.
It was Bob Anderson as Vader's stunt double. Paul Allen fabricated the Stunt helmet.
It was proven the ROTJ helmets were new casts. Brandon Alinger who wrote the costume book has stated the difference in the fiberglass work between ESB and ROTJ helmets.
Darth Africanus
Sr Member
Awesome man you are correct unfortunately as I type I only work of memory and I'm not immune to mix ups etc my memory can fool me same as anyone els
Yes thank you Bob Anderson pfff why I said Paul Allen sorry will correct for that
Awesome thanks for the input I don't have all available sources so the input from you guys is just as important thanks man!
Paul Allen did not fabricate the stunt helmet. Paul Allen OWNED the the stunt helmet. The late Paul Allen was the cofounder of Microsoft and a collector of Sci-fi memorabilia. He bought the ESB stunt from an eBay auction and it is part of his collection.
Pages 202-203 of Alinger's book states that several stunt helmets were made during the production of Empire. The acrylic pieces were fabricated by Talbot Designs and installed on the helmet by pattern maker Brian Archer. It makes sense that the stunt helmets were made at the same time -- they would have wanted a back-up in case the first one was damaged.
They then used one of the other stunt helmets for Jedi (usually referred to as the "fat lip" helmet).
Pages 202-203 of Alinger's book states that several stunt helmets were made during the production of Empire. The acrylic pieces were fabricated by Talbot Designs and installed on the helmet by pattern maker Brian Archer. It makes sense that the stunt helmets were made at the same time -- they would have wanted a back-up in case the first one was damaged.
They then used one of the other stunt helmets for Jedi (usually referred to as the "fat lip" helmet).
Darth Africanus
Sr Member
Awesome Dave thank you very much for that snipit. So that is where my memory that connects Paul Allen with the stunt helmet got mixed
Yes I remember reading he was the owner of the stunt helmet
Will add the details about the stunt helmets as I go but you got it covered there
Really love how the info is coming together this is how Vaders threads should be nice and constructive [emoji16]
Thank you so good sir!
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