Prometheus (Post-release)

[CB2001]

Has Ash vs Bishop vs David already been covered? lol

Prometheus has the most attenuated connection to Alien. Its not a real prequel. Its just set in the same universe. Not only that, Prometheus and Alien are almost entirely different genres when you compare them. I think that is the biggest reason some didn't like it. They wanted another Alien movie, and that is not what he was making.

Amen to that.

 

[Nwerke]

but again, scientists come up with theories like this all the time and their belief in them, when they cannot be proved IS an example of faith.

Scientists are human and that kind of thinking is human nature. It isn't good science, though; you don't 'believe' in a hypothesis, you test it. You can't prove a hypothesis anyway, only disprove it; only when a hypothesis survives enough attempts to disprove it is it elevated to the lofty rank of theory. I know you were speaking colloquially here but I'm OCD, can't not nitpick. :lol

Is she right that someone else created the Engineers? Who knows. Maybe we will find out in Paradise.

I rather hope that is what we find out. Ideally, huge, elephant-like cyborg creatures, grown out of their chairs. Twice the size of the Engineers. The Engineers worship them, and model their ships, piloting chairs and space suits after this species. Oh god I'm turning into Jeyl. :lol

That is a very interesting analogy. I LOVE things like this, as it does make me look at these movies from a very different POV and even if I don't particularly agree, I will be watching the movies with fresh eyes and a fresh perspective.

I really, really, badly wanted to rep Kevin more for that piece. But I couldn't because I have already repped him too much. PLEASE can we get rid of that restriction? :lol

Keep up. monkey-boy! This is the best discussion we have had since the film came out and everyone was in their initial uproar!!!

:lol :thumbsup

You're the best Martyn! Anyone ever tell you that? :lol :thumbsup

Only every day! Um, in my head. Actually no that's not true either. More the opposite. Stupid little voices...shut up! Nobody knows about that! Or that! Stop it! STOP IIIIITTTT!!!!!! Cough, ahem, sorry...

She really is a Laplander I gather, so's Renee Zellweger, and Lance Henriksen. Interesting-looking bunch.

 

[Nwerke]

I agree that she projects that in ALIEN about up until Ash attacks her. From there on she is a different person. It is as if her bubble of "I'm safe" and her confidence have been broken.

She has to sing herself a song in order to go through with killing the ALIEN.

Yeah, about right. She's being Ms. Corporate Cog up until then. I see it as a front; she's playing the professional role she thinks is called for. She's got no reason to consider the company corrupt at the beginning and wants to further her career. She's probably the most upwardly mobile of the crew; not a screwup like most of the others if you believe the personnel file backstories. She knows she's saddled with some less than stellar crewmates and is trying to ride herd on them as best she can; that's part of her job.

Afterwards she's rattled, in a survival situation, her whole worldview has probably taken a beating.

I do see what you mean there that it can be both. While I'm sure you get what I mean about the motherly protective instinct Martyn, I'd like to illustrate this further-

Preaching to the choir at this point - I'd struggle to believe Cameron was blind to the Rambo side of the equation but you've done a very good job rounding up the other side. Connected some dots for me there in fact, so thanks!

Right, my point is that we are introduced to them when they are at their worst, walking up early from cryo-sleep, pissed off, tired, hungry, argumentative. As the film goes on each has the briefest of moments they all get nice moments...before being killed.

Agree, I don't find them nearly as unlikeable as the casts of some well-received recent movies. Brett and Parker have their jokey moments, Dallas is just a classic nice guy, Lambert's a little neurotic maybe but it doesn't show at the start, Kane and Ash are top shelf British character actors so it's taken care of and yeah, even Ripley smiles once. :lol

 

[Michael Bergeron]

Lol...

After a mighty fine read all I can add is my personal opinion of Ripley FTW. :lol

 

[Art Andrews]

It isn't good science, though; you don't 'believe' in a hypothesis, you test it.

Show me a robot scientist or a Vulcan and I will believe you. Show me a human and you will be hard pressed to convince me they don't go into the situation believing something and then trying to prove or disprove it. And of course you can only disprove something, but again, that is purely scientific thinking and I don' think most are truly capable of it.

I rather hope that is what we find out. Ideally, huge, elephant-like cyborg creatures, grown out of their chairs. Twice the size of the Engineers. The Engineers worship them, and model their ships, piloting chairs and space suits after this species. Oh god I'm turning into Jeyl. :lol

LOL. Hey, with all the religious overtones to the movie and the fact that we were created in the image of the Engineers, that is entirely plausible... I don' think it is going to happen, but it is plausible.

I really, really, badly wanted to rep Kevin more for that piece. But I couldn't because I have already repped him too much. PLEASE can we get rid of that restriction? :lol

I think I will rep him for you because it made me look at ALIENS in an entirely different way!

 

[Art Andrews]

So, just finished up ALIENS, one of my all time favorite movies. Thanks, guys. You have ruined it for me forever! :lol

Actually, I think I ruined it for me. Watching ALIENS back to back with ALIEN really shows the cracks in the second movie and shows how hollow some of the characters are, especially in comparison to the first film. I have always loved Hicks and Hudson, but MAN do they have some really cheeseball lines, especially early on in the film!

SSgt Burton has forever changed the way I will see this movie and especially the way I see Ripley. She is still a wholly unlikable character and you see the same attitude from one film to the next, but, I also do feel some sympathy for her, looking at her through SSgt Burton's glasses. I still maintain she is overly mannish and there is no doubt of the Rambo thing at the end, but overall, you have tempered my negative feelings towards her just a bit. I still prefer Shaw, but I now hate Ripley just a little less.

 

[Art Andrews]

Has Ash vs Bishop vs David already been covered? lol

David for the win!

[starts rewrapping wrists/hands]

 

[Solo4114]

Has Ash vs Bishop vs David already been covered? lol

Prometheus has the most attenuated connection to Alien. Its not a real prequel. Its just set in the same universe. Not only that, Prometheus and Alien are almost entirely different genres when you compare them. I think that is the biggest reason some didn't like it. They wanted another Alien movie, and that is not what he was making.

Actually, I think the frustration is that we can't quite tell WHAT kind of movie he was making. Is it a space exploration movie? Is it a generic monster movie (e.g. an "Alien" movie)? The film can't really seem to decide which it is.

I liken it to Club Dread, actually, which can't decide if it's a serious horror film or a comedy. Sometimes blending genres works. In that case, it didn't. It was too horrific to be effective as a comedy, and too comedic to be effective as a horror film. Compare it to, say, Scary Movie or Scream, which are more 25/75 mixes rather than 50/50.

By the same token, we've got this weird 50/50 mix of monster movie and exploration movie, and the beats end up getting in each others' way. It's frustrating.

Anyway, as for the Ripley thing, I still think that the real issue is that she's not depicted as feminine, as much as she is depicted as female, and that's what Art may be reacting to.


I tend to think there's a difference between "strong female character" and "strong character who happens to be female." A "strong female character" often has "softening" aspects to their personality, to some extent related to sexuality in the sense of depicting them as a sexual being. A "strong character who happens to be female" really is just that: a strong character with female body parts.

While I don't think Ripley is wholly without femininity, her femininity is entirely beside the point and doesn't really come into play except in a very few brief instances. However, I don't think that makes her masculine (except insofar as one sees "absence of femininity" as inherently masculine).

The second film is a bit different because -- particularly in the extended version -- she shows sort of a maternal quality. What's interesting, though, is that this, in a way, again diminishes her sexuality. Aside from one momentary flirtation with Hicks, you don't get any sense of Ripley being a sexual being. She's a maternal figure, but that's it.

The third film is much closer to the first one, as I recall (although I've admittedly only seen it once or twice). Ripley is neither sexual (again, aside from one moment of flirtation), and is entirely focused on survival and then ultimately self-sacrifice. Note: I don't count the attempted rape as sexual, so much as being about her being a victim. That's power-related, not sexual. If it had been a skinny little guy (and remember, it's set in a prison...), you'd have the same effect.


Shaw, by contrast, is explicitly sexual in that she has a sexual relationship with her boyfriend. She's shown as being in love with him, and so on. That, in essence, is the "softening" element to her character which, I think, makes her appear more feminine. Actually, I think the fact that she has a friendly, loving relationship with someone adds femininity to her. Ripley doesn't have that, ever, except with Newt, or hinted at with other characters. In that sense, she's more of a loner, and that may be the aspect that makes her seem "colder." It's not that she's so much colder, it's that Shaw is a lot warmer. And perhaps it's that warmth that (A) makes her more likeable to Art, and (B) makes her seem more feminine.

 

[Mola Rob]

So, just finished up ALIENS, one of my all time favorite movies. Thanks, guys. You have ruined it for me forever! :lol

Actually, I think I ruined it for me. Watching ALIENS back to back with ALIEN really shows the cracks in the second movie and shows how hollow some of the characters are, especially in comparison to the first film. I have always loved Hicks and Hudson, but MAN do they have some really cheeseball lines, especially early on in the film!

I have always felt the characters in Aliens were weaker than in the first movie. They are more straightforward mainstream Hollywood characters so in that regard they are more "likable" but I don't find them particularly interesting. They can basically be broken down into their individual stereotypes pretty easily: the greedy guy, the scared guy, the strong quiet guy, the tough chick, etc. The actors do a great job in their roles but there is nothing astounding about the characters themselves.

 

[NAZGÛL]

Solo, In Alien 3 there is a sexual theme. Ripleys sexuality is threatining the peace among the convicts even leading to the attempted rape, and she initiates a sexual relation with Dr Clemens.

Alien 3 has the most interesting and under the skin portrait of Ripley, and the film itself is very underrated.

 

[Reelo]

Alien 3 has the most interesting and under the skin portrait of Ripley, and the film itself is very underrated.

Agreed. I never understood all the negative critique. It's still a better movie than part 4 and certainly deeper than Aliens...

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2

 

[SSgt Burton]

SSgt Burton has forever changed the way I will see this movie and especially the way I see Ripley... I still prefer Shaw, but I now hate Ripley just a little less.

Thank you Art! (You too Martyn and Cut Thumb)

While I certainly didn't expect you to do a 180 about Ripley, "hating her less" is great to hear! :thumbsup

My take on the Ripley character is more or less (for different reasons) how you feel about Sarah Connor. Ultimately a tragic hero.

Alien 3 has the most interesting and under the skin portrait of Ripley, and the film itself is very underrated.

Completely agree!

My thoughts on why Alien3 is so dismissed by fans---

-The obvious first answer is that there was probably an overwhelming expectation of more "Alien butt kicking" from "Aliens." I don't know how many times I've heard the old wishful "make the third movie a dream sequence" (because we want more USCM) line.

This was not the intention behind making a sequel; it was to be another installment in the Alien franchise, not a Colonial Marines sequel.

In order to accomplish taking the series in a new direction (while at the same time attempting to return the franchise to its sci-fi/horror roots) they HAD to kill off two of the beloved characters from the previous film.

And that was done most uncerimoniously. Escape ship crashed: they're dead. Very cold slap in the face to fans of "Aliens" who wanted to see more of cool as a cucumber Hicks, and harsh end to everything Ripley went through to keep Newt alive.

To top it off the audience was treated to the most uncomfortable examination of an 8 year old dead little girl. What is even more unbelievable is that the original examination sequence was much longer and much more detailed to the point of being overtly obscene! Thankfully the filmmakers didn't subject us to that!

So these characters are killed off in the first quarter of the movie. I think after that, many movie goers turned themselves off to the rest of the film.

Aside from this, the theatrical release of Alien3 is a bit of a mess in the editing department. (Knowing what the production went through, from several complete rewrites to beginning filming without a finished script, and it being Fincher's directoral debut, it is amazing Alien3 made it to theaters at all!)

However the 2003 restored Workprint reconnects many of the deleted scenes making the movie less disjointed. There is actually an entire sequence (much like the Jordans find the Derelict bit in Aliens) with prisoner Golic that is brilliant!

The Workprint is best viewed with the 2010 Bluray release. The 2003 Special Edition dvd has sections of restored scenes with very poor audio (so much so the lines are actually subtitled). For the Bluray the original actors looped their own lines improving the audio quality on par with the rest of the film.


For me the ALIEN franchise is about a dystopian future- and the horrors that await us in outer space. So the previous movies should have been left as a trilogy with the Ripley character-

ALIEN- Introduction
Aliens- Survivor
Alien3- Death

Alien3 was a fitting end for Ripley, who finally succumbs to the alien threat- but sacrifices herself to prevent the species from continuing, and WY getting their hands on a sample. In other words they (the Alien) finally got her; like a cancer. And no one back on Earth will ever know of her altruistic action... or even care.



Kevin

 

[Michael Bergeron]

Kevin, it seems you and I view the franchise with the same eyes. Brilliantly written!

My heart was torn out at the start of A3. Near tears.

 

[Mola Rob]

Kevin, it seems you and I view the franchise with the same eyes. Brilliantly written!

My heart was torn out at the start of A3. Near tears.

I have a similar view as well. My reviews of the Alien franchise: Alien | Edge of the Fringe

 

[rodneyfaile]

Actually, I think the frustration is that we can't quite tell WHAT kind of movie he was making. Is it a space exploration movie? Is it a generic monster movie (e.g. an "Alien" movie)? The film can't really seem to decide which it is.

For me, it is a philosophical movie and is intentionally ambiguous. It is meant to instigate conversation regarding the origins of life. Why does the origin life matter? Isn't what you do with your life more important than how it came to be? Your creators do not impart what you choose for your life to be.

As for comparing female characters in two totally different movies, I dont even understand the point. People are just people. Ripley is Ripley and Shaw is Shaw. They come from different places and times, they have different sets of values and goals.

 

[SSgt Burton]

It's funny Mola Rob, I was going to go back and edit my post to include the "less than stellar" go-motion rod puppet alien in A3 as another one of its downfalls, however you kind of beat me to it with your blog. I was even going to use the word "wonky" as well! :lol

What is also interesting is that people viewing A3 today consider the alien to be bad CGI (especially the "Alien runs across the ceiling" effect you highlighted), when in fact it was bad compositing (again as you mentioned). The only CGI (to my knowledge) was the "cracks" in the Alien's skull during the lead/water dousing shot.


Kevin

 

[Mola Rob]

It's funny Mola Rob, I was going to go back and edit my post to include the "less than stellar" go-motion rod puppet alien in A3 as another one of its downfalls, however you kind of beat me to it with your blog. I was even going to use the word "wonky" as well! :lol

What is also interesting is that people viewing A3 today consider the alien to be bad CGI (especially the "Alien runs across the ceiling" effect you highlighted), when in fact it was bad compositing (again as you mentioned). The only CGI (to my knowledge) was the "cracks" in the Alien's skull during the lead/water dousing shot.


Kevin

Great minds think alike...or at least crazy movie fanatic minds. :lol

Alien 3 is one movie where I wish they would do a little tweaking for color correction and filling in some missing alien parts.

 

[Jeyl]

For me, it is a philosophical movie and is intentionally ambiguous.

Or as the writers of this film call it "Come up with random stuff, don't explain any of it and people will call it philosophical". They gotta put a little more effort into it than that if they want to get me thinking. Origins of life? I find the origin of the Space Jockey to be a lot more interesting than the idea of being created by bald, hairless albinos from space who grunt a lot.

 

[RobI]

I read a lot of articles and interviews after the release of the movie. There was a plan and naturally opens up a lot of speculation about...everything. LV223 is not the planet where the ship in the original ship crashed in Alien. It was LV426. Keep that in mind.

My head was spinning after the first 10 pages of this thread so maybe it was covered already.

My take is, I have hopes that the eventual tie in's to the original saga will be solid enough to satisfy 'most' of the Alien fans. They were definitely there. There are far too many questions to leave it at a one off movie. Prometheus 2 is in development. We shall see.

 

[rodneyfaile]

Or as the writers of this film call it "Come up with random stuff, don't explain any of it and people will call it philosophical".

You are a sith of the strawman. lol

They gotta put a little more effort into it than that if they want to get me thinking.

You are the one who has to put effort into thinking. No one can do it for you.

I will say it has been almost a year since release and you are still talking about it, so it definitely has your attention.

Origins of life? I find the origin of the Space Jockey to be a lot more interesting than the idea of being created by bald, hairless albinos from space who grunt a lot.

Maybe the origins of life are not as important as what you do with that life.

David- "Can you imagine how disappointing it would be for you to hear the same thing from your creator?"

Maybe none of us were created for any grand purpose. We didn't have some gloriously devised plan for us. Maybe we were an accident. Maybe the plan for us is not the plan we would chose.

Doest it matter?

Should someone else's plan, or the total lack of a plan altogether, impact how you live your life? You most likely are going to be disappointed if you look for external sources for the meaning of life. You should give your own life meaning.

The search for answers only leads to more questions. Nothing wrong with pursuing answers to questions, but don't let those answers decide who you are.