PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction / Vader Helmet Discussion

[Too Much Garlic]

You can only fill the same area the same way roughly once, especially if you are doing a rush job, just to conceal the undercuts present at the tubes. That roughness of the filler will be on ALL the casts from that mold and you'd have to clean up the cast extensively to remove that detail and seeing as filler detail matches, I'd say they didn't remove that detail that links these together.

The UK mold helmets have similar filler details in common that are unique to that family of helmets and the fact that those details are there on those casts connects them to a single molding off that original, but at different stages in lineage, if you understand my meaning.

The Rick Baker mold is a second molding of the original helmet at a later time and the filler details are consistent between the casts from that mold. They do not match the UK style helmets, which is a good way to set them apart. And because of that filler the Rick Baker casts will never be as accurate to the screen used ANH as an untampered with straight out of the UK mold cast will be.

It is not a cast from the ANH production mold that created the screen used helmet. It is confirmed to be molded and cast off the screen used ANH and connected to the Rick Baker mold.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[SithLord]

The Rick Baker mold is a second molding of the original helmet at a later time and the filler details are consistent between the casts from that mold. They do not match the UK style helmets, which is a good way to set them apart. And because of that filler the Rick Baker casts will never be as accurate to the screen used ANH as an untampered with straight out of the UK mold cast will be.

It would be nice to see such an "untampered" casting...

 

[clayslinger]

Sorry TMG,

That made no sense to me at all.

I get that the mold in the UK made the production helmet castings off the sculptures.

I get that Rick Baker molded "The" ANH helmet but filled in some undercuts (starting a new family tree) and that "The" ANH production helmet went back to the UK.

Anything else was clear as mud.

Chuck...

 

[SithLord]

Sorry TMG,

That made no sense to me at all.

I get that the mold in the UK made the production helmet castings off the sculptures.

I get that Rick Baker molded "The" ANH helmet but filled in some undercuts (starting a new family tree) and that "The" ANH production helmet went back to the UK.

Anything else was clear as mud.

Chuck...

Well it is thought, based on the UK mask lineage, that the original ANH mask was molded at some point prior to the Baker/ILM mold (since those masks have tabs intact...although they could have been put back, but I'm doubtful). That "UK" mold is a hypothetical mold and different from the original production mold, which would have given us the three or four production ANH pulls. There are still things that are controversial about the UK mask lineage as comes up from time to time. But Carsten's point is that since the UK mask lineage doesn't have filled undercut it is more accurate than the lineage coming from the Baker/ILM mold and I think that is a gross oversimplification.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

It would be nice to see such an "untampered" casting...

Indeed it would.

And yes... it was a gross oversimplification. Especially since we don't have an untampered UK casting, so it's basically all just speculation. For one thing, we have untampered castings (well, damn near perfect) from the Rick Baker mold. Hopefully we'll be as fortunate to see a similar level UK style helmet in the future.

Sorry TMG,
That made no sense to me at all.
I get that the mold in the UK made the production helmet castings off the sculptures.
I get that Rick Baker molded "The" ANH helmet but filled in some undercuts (starting a new family tree) and that "The" ANH production helmet went back to the UK.
Anything else was clear as mud.
Chuck...

I keep forgetting that everyone else haven't been as into this as I and several others have, so I'll try to truncate it and you are allowed to slap me if I go off on a tangent again.

Basically... here goes.

There's a mold that made the ANH production helmets. From what I recall it has always been referred to as the ANH production mold. It produced the screen used helmet + extras (uncertain of amount of extras, ranging from 2-3 extra helmets, at least 1 fitted and ready for filming but not used)

Anyway, from the screen used helmet we know of at least two moldings:

The first we refer to as the UK mold and it was from that lineage that we predominantly get the other movie production helmets seen in ESB and RotJ.
Other casts confirmed from that lineage is the TD, TM, VP, 20th C and many other fan derived helmets.

The other was previously dubbed the US mold until it was confirmed to be Rick Baker making it, so now we call it the Rick Baker mold. That mold produced tour and promotion helmets, but at least 1 helmet from that mold ended up on screen in the funeral pyre scene at the end of RotJ, so in essence is also a production mold... of sorts - but mostly tour/promotion.
Known casts from that mold is the ESB Movie Poster Helmet, the DJ, SL, eFX and now this PIH helmet.

Filler details on the two mold lines are different and makes it possible to link a new helmet to one or the other. The TD, TM and VP from the UK strain share a few filler details, most predominantly the chin vent filler detail confirms they are linked together in the same lineage. The DJ, SL and the PIH share the undercut filler detail + other details, which I'm sure Sithlord can go into more detail over. Can the tubes have been filled in for a third molding? Possibly... but having filler detail match between two casts rule out that possibility. So the off chance that the PIH doesn't come from the Rick Baker mold is, imo, very slim.

If I'm still not making sense, then I honestly don't know how to explain it better. And hopefully someone with better linguistic and explanatory skills than me could do a better job.

 

[clayslinger]

Thanks TMG for taking the time to clarify what you meant.
You came thru loud and clear this time!
I appreciate it!

All the best,
Chuck...

 

[Too Much Garlic]

WOOHOO... at least I'm not a total failure. Glad it made more sense this time. :cheers

 

[PropworxOliver]

Thank you to everyone for clarifying posts for those who are not Star Wars experts!

 

[SithLord]

Nice summary, Carsten...

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Anyway... found this of the PIH Vader:

From this site: Photo tour of Profiles in History

 

[SithLord]

Nice find...here's just a quick comparison to show how the symmetry of the flaring and curvature of the front L&R flaring edges just perfectly matches that of a Fyberdyne...

Plus, and this is incredible, I've studied the grill on the original ANH mask enough times that to me it is obvious that the PIH mask mimics the exact type and even the location of the grill when compared to the original ANH. This clearly shows an attempt to make this helmet seem like THE original ANH helmet and demonstrates the intent of the consignor. Only someone with knowledge and reference material of the grill on the original ANH mask could have lined it up in that way. I find that deplorable.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Or... they had the original on hand when they did up the finishing. I really don't see any deliberate deception intended with that. You yourself would line up grills according to the original on your masks as well, but do you do so to deceive or to replicate that screen used helmet look?

 

[SithLord]

Or... they had the original on hand when they did up the finishing. I really don't see any deliberate deception intended with that. You yourself would line up grills according to the original on your masks as well, but do you do so to deceive or to replicate that screen used helmet look?

No, the finishing was done more recently, as I said before. And the difference here is that I would line it up but I wouldn't claim it was the ORIGINAL SCREEN HELMET.

 

[lambotour]

No, the finishing was done more recently, as I said before. And the difference here is that I would line it up but I wouldn't claim it was the ORIGINAL SCREEN HELMET.

Original production made Darth Vader helmet from Star Wars: Episode IV – A New Hope (TCF, 1977) Constructed of fiberglass, this production helmet was acquired from Shepperton Design Studios and comes with a letter of provenance from an executive at Don Post Studios who, in early 1977, arranged for the first merchandising license for Star Wars to make smaller scale replica helmets for kids. The helmet arrived unpainted and was later expertly finished using original reference materials to establish the look of the helmet from Star Wars: Episode IV - A New Hope. As seen in the reference photo of the screen-used helmet taken at ILM during production, the original helmet had a unique bristle-like fastener, attached with screws, joining the helmet to the face mask (modern Velcro is now in place). Comes with a letter of provenance from the consignor as well as the original Star Wars 24-pg brochure (in its original box) that was sent by Twentieth Century-Fox to Don Post Studios which prompted Post to become the first licensee. Mounted on a display base, the helmet remains in fine condition.

Thomas, there isn't any claim being made in the description that it is the original screen helmet. Where do you see that? It clearly states the helmet came unfinished and was later finished using pics of the original as reference. Be careful when you mis-interpret something because then you are no better than they are.

It should be reworded and state that this casting was pulled at DPS when the original was there and lose the whole "production" moniker. Also the pic of the original was taken at DPS by Malone, so that should also be re-written.

As far as your analysis on the grills, the grills on the PIH are clearly off set more to the left (as you look at it) compared to the original grills and if it is the same type grill, it's been placed upside down. I do, however, agree with your dome analysis.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Where does it state that the finishing was recent?

 

[SithLord]

Thomas, there isn't any claim being made in the description that it is the original screen helmet. Where do you see that? It clearly states the helmet came unfinished and was later finished using pics of the original as reference. Be careful when you mis-interpret something because then you are no better than they are.

By the grills being oriented the same way as the screen mask implies that.

It should be reworded and state that this casting was pulled at DPS when the original was there and lose the whole "production" moniker. Also the pic of the original was taken at DPS by Malone, so that should also be re-written.

Well we don't know when this was pulled, but it was probably worked on by someone affiliated with Don Post. But yes certainly not production made.

As far as your analysis on the grills, the grills on the PIH are clearly off set more to the left (as you look at it) compared to the original grills and if it is the same type grill, it's been placed upside down. I do, however, agree with your dome analysis.

Well they are close enough to be more than just a coincidence.

 

[Vadermonkey]

Aligning the grill is no more misleading than using black paint.

 

[vader71]

This just has to be repeated:

The helmet arrived unpainted and was later expertly finished using original reference materials to establish the look of the helmet from Star Wars: Episode IV - A New Hope.

So if I match the paintjob in that DPS Malone photo it implies that the mask is screen used?

 

[Vadermonkey]

Guess I'm guilty too...

 

[micdavis]

Did it sell?