original esb vader costume on the auction block

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Yet the helmet and facemask have RotJ tells. Something smells wrong here, Jez. I think I will just let this go. Someone will end up spending large sums of money on something that is not what it is billed as, and it ain't me. I find myself asking why I care at the moment.

 

[Star Wars Helmets]

I agree with your sentiments Qui. Personally speaking I just want someone to nail precisely what this is (or isn't), prior to the auction.

Cheers

Jez

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

I agree with your sentiments Qui. Personally speaking I just want someone to nail precisely what this is (or isn't), prior to the auction.

Cheers

Jez

I'm of the mind that this will never happen unless some REAL Vader experts get their hand on the pieces and examine them fully. Some folks have too much to gain to allow this to happen.

 

[SithLord]

Thanks for the detective work, Jez. If you can, ask them what the dates of the actual documents are. There is a difference in having a document dated from 1980 versus having one from 2010 saying that the suit was delivered in 1980 or whatever the content of the documents are. If the helmet came from the ESB production then it would have to have come from an ESB production mold and based on the obvious ROTJ features/tells I don't see how that is possible. But I could spend all day saying what it is not, unless we know what the documentation claims specifically then it is similar to the Don Bies helmet/armor situation where the documentation overrided whatever anyone could say about the that set. All I can sink my teeth into are details and features but what it boils down to is what Farmer claims. And I have reference of an ESB Farmer promo suit to compare against this one so we'll see.

 

[Star Wars Helmets]

I'm of the mind that this will never happen unless some REAL Vader experts get their hand on the pieces and examine them fully.

I agree with you 100% I helped Christies many times in the past on (for example) Stormtrooper helmets and I was 100% confident with my abilities as had handled numerous original Stormtrooper helmets prior to that.

In this case Ive not helped them since Ive never handled an original Vader helmet so would hope that they found someone who had.

On another note I just picked up a clarification from Christies over the dates which reads.... "NJ Farmer mentioned it was the early part of 1980"


Ive decided that this will be my last post on this subject and will leave it to the Vader experts.......


Cheers


Jez

 

[SithLord]

I don't know. Looking at that suit and then someone claiming it came from the early part of 1980. It just doesn't look that old, at all. I realize you are just relating what Christie's has told you but this is all like out of some kind of bad novel. :lol

And it isn't like I am the only Vader aficionado here. We have many here with a lot of experience examining Vader reference material of some kind or another, as well as a core group of original Star Wars prop gurus. Usually they are all quick to disagree with me if they think I am wrong.

 

[jdebord]

I just published my latest podcast, which features an interview with the consignor of the Darth Vader costume being offered at auction by Christie's at the end of the month:

Prop Talk Podcast #010 – Ed Zine, Darth Vader Costume Collector | Interview by The Original Prop Blog with Jason DeBord

Jason

 

[SithLord]

I am just so blown over by all of this. I just simply cannot believe it. It is almost as if this auction is happening in a vacuum.

It is a ROTJ helmet, the mask has been modified in the rear, nothing about the finishing work is original. So how could it be from ESB? There is just something really wrong here.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

It's so funny it's sad. But I guess the prospect of big money got the better of everybody's judgment.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

It's so funny it's sad. But I guess the prospect of big money got the better of everybody's judgment.

"Original prop blog", eh? I have a couple of questions for Jason, since I did not listen to this podcast. Did you ask him the tough questions, or was this just an interview where the interviewer glommed onto the interviewee letting him spew his nonsense? Did you consult ANYONE with real expertise on Vader? Everything Thomas has posted shoots down every tale this guy has told. The proof is in the pics and this guy's pics do not lend themselves to him having a production made ESB ANYTHING.

This is how bad information gets out there and this is why people with real knowledge stay mum.

 

[darthvaderv]

Not been around the last few weeks. I feel Sorry for whoever pays the price on this because I think it's a joke as it's simply not a screen used or even spare ESB in the form it should be. However, I do think the mask originated from there but was in the process of being converted. The dome looks to be an authentic ROTJ but I couldn't say at this stage if it was screen used. The rest of the costume is amusing. I would give some merit to the mask and dome but they are not what they say they are as others have mentioned.

 

[SithLord]

Sure, I would consider the mask and the dome as worthwhile investments but of course not as originals.

 

[SithLord]

This is how bad information gets out there and this is why people with real knowledge stay mum.

Actually I want to highlight this point Qui made. This isn't just about Vader or what is accurate or original or not as much as I am inclined to delve into that sort of thing. If this suit sells as an original or with original components, or "possibly from the production" parts, it tarnishes the entire hobby of collecting. It makes a mockery of anyone who takes collecting original props, or even replicas, seriously.

I am willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt, especially if I do not have all the information or documentation in hand. But there is a lot more to this than just the claims by the consigner.

I would just hope that Christie's would consult with someone who worked on the Empire Strikes Back directly who would be in a position to validate the claims, for example Gary Kurtz. They don't need to believe what I or anyone else here says. But there are avenues available to them to confirm provenance that they have not fully exhausted yet.

 

[GINO]

I don't agree 100% with the all assessments being expressed here, but it would be extremely bad form on Christies part if this is auction is not pulled with the current claims in place.



.

 

[Prop Archives]

We have a member here that claims to have one of the original "touring suits" as mentioned. Also has it matching posters of ESB.

proparchives.com - Vader Suit

-Aaron

 

[SithLord]

Yes well at least that helmet matches to the ESB movie poster so it is confirmed to be promotional although the rest of the costume doesn't match the poster costume.

I had a few more things to touch upon about what was said in the interview.

He initially referred to the company 3M as "3 millimeter".

I checked Lucite's website and there is no code 912 for color that I could find, although I did find the 504 and it looks close to the stunt mask eyes:

But he states the cheeks and neck on the stunt mask is code 912 and is a "greyish" color when it is instead a dark green.

As an aside this particular color below looks similar to the TK/Boba Fett lens color (but I don't think it is the neck color on the stunt mask):

He states that the teeth are thinner on the auction mask because of the shrinkage effect of the mold. Nonsense. The teeth are not in their original configuration and have been trimmed, leading to wider gaps. Going back to his claim about the I am your father scene mask having the same teeth as his mask. Nope. The auction mask teeth were trimmed leaving them narrower than the original and the gaps larger than the original as seen below. The bottom mask has the accurate teeth for both ANH and ESB. The auction mask teeth are simply not accurate or original and it has nothing to do with how it came out of the mold. You'll even notice that the second from the left tooth gap is just a bit wider on the 20th C ESB promo mask, and it is also the wider tooth on the screen mask and in fact the teeth and gaps are entirely identical between the ESB promo mask and the screen ESB mask, but very different from the gaps on the auction mask. So, no, it isn't a result of how it came out of the mold.

He states that Andrew Ainsworth said that with a hard mold there will be stress marks in the same place every time when it comes out of the mold. So this would be in reference to what the owner claims are stress marks on the mask that were repaired. So the owner doesn't seem to realize that Andrew is referring to the type of positive molds used to make TK helmets and that is probably why he thinks that the Vader helmets came out of hard molds. Talk about majorly confused. :wacko

He states that Don Post was given authorization to make the owner a Darth Vader costume and it turned out it was ANH like. So the question is, given authorization by whom? Lucasfilm? If Lucasfilm, they would never give someone authorization outside of a licensing agreement to do something like that.

The saga continues...

 

[The Prop Stop]

Here are the three helmets that Christies is using as reference material for the sale of this one.

The Christies Vader Helmets: A look back at the catalogues and auctions. | the propstop's world of entertainment memorabilia

 

[jdebord]

"Original prop blog", eh? I have a couple of questions for Jason, since I did not listen to this podcast. Did you ask him the tough questions, or was this just an interview where the interviewer glommed onto the interviewee letting him spew his nonsense? Did you consult ANYONE with real expertise on Vader? Everything Thomas has posted shoots down every tale this guy has told. The proof is in the pics and this guy's pics do not lend themselves to him having a production made ESB ANYTHING.

One more sham for the Vader crowd to roll their eyes at. This is how bad information gets out there and this is why people with real knowledge stay mum.

Just for clarification, you are criticizing me over an interview that I posted publicly, that you state that you have not listened to, over how you imagine I conducted it?

Jason

 

[SithLord]

I think one has to realize that in an interview situation there is a certain responsibility of the interviewer to present the questions from a neutral standpoint which I think Jason did quite well. So well in fact that Mr. Zine attempted on a few occasions to illicit personal opinions from Jason. Certainly the questions were what one would expect should be asked for an auction with this kind of attention. There was some more extensive profiling of the personal background of the owner, which conveyed his very personal reasons for collecting the two Vader costumes and establishing the relationships he has or had with people directly or indirectly related to the costumes. That being said, given how well he conveyed this personal link to the motion picture and Darth Vader, there is a question that I would have asked:

Why is he selling it?

If it helped him so much, and if Vader and ESB mean that much to him, with memories that powerful, why sell them? :confused

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Just for clarification, you are criticizing me over an interview that I posted publicly, that you state that you have not listened to, over how you imagine I conducted it?

Jason

Did Thomas misinterpret anything? You are correct though, so I listened for myself. You basically let him ramble on, misinterpreting things. Why even ask Ainsworth anything about fiberglass? He is saying there is a line that could be from the plasterer? Oi, this guy hurts my head.

So, after listening Jason, my supposition, based on what Thomas posted, was correct. Thomas and I will disagree on the interview style. Neutrality is needed, but you also need to know the background of what you are discussing if you are going to be calling it an "original prop" interview.

Thomas pretty well covered the points I had heard in the discussion which were horse bunk. Jason, what I take umbrage with in this whole thing is patently FALSE information is being pushed out by Mr. Zine. He quite obviously does not want to hear what he has is NOT production anything. He only wants to hear what it is. He said that pretty early on in the disucssion. He talks shrinkage on a huge scale too. I bet if you ask people who have pulled fiberglass from molds that shrinkage is barely noticeable.

Why does he talk about a hard mold towards the end of the interview when saying the pieces were pulled from a silicone mold early on?

There Jason, now I am criticizing your interview with having listened to it and not taking Thomas at his word in regards to his synopsis. My gripes were written after listening. I need to let some of the other crap sink in.