VADER EXPERTS

[Victorious-Jay]

I will say that the tabs sure look silver/grey in this pic.

However, unless they are claiming that it is a screen used helmet (which I don't think they are), what difference would accurate tabs make? The ability to find the right tabs doesn't speak at all to the source of the mold that the pull was taken from. The helmet looks amazing but I'm skeptical.

-Jason M

 

[lambotour]

<div class='quotetop'>(Boba Frett @ Jun 22 2006, 11:54 PM) [snapback]1266377[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>

Also he says they do have more pics of the faceplate. [/b]

Will they be releasing the pictures for everyone to see?
[/b][/quote]

I've already asked and I'm crossing my fingers.

It truly is such an overwhelming feeling when information is given out. The recent ANH chestbox light covers and belt box light threads (Thks PC, VD, DP,KB) were such a huge contribution to us vader nuts and to the community. I just don't get it sometimes. I'm all about integrity and trust, but what good is a Lamborghini when it's covered under some cloth and kept in your garage?

 

[RKW]

<div class='quotetop'>(SithLord @ Jun 22 2006, 08:57 PM) [snapback]1266069[/snapback]</div>

I'm not making any claims. I'm stating facts.
[/b]

<div class='quotetop'>(SithLord @ Jun 23 2006, 02:22 AM) [snapback]1266311[/snapback]</div>

I'm generally one who likes to give someone the benefit of the doubt. I've stated what I know about the helmet and will leave it at that. I'm not interesting in pointing my finger at someone for this or that, especially someone who cannot speak for themselves on the forum. But if you want my opinion about a Vader helmet, I'll give it .
[/b]

There in lies the problem SL. Is it your opinion that this helmet is not original or fact? You can't claim facts only to be found wrong later leaving a potential mess behind you. If your saying it's fact then you have a responsibility to prove it.

 

[vadermania]

<div class='quotetop'>(SithLord @ Jun 22 2006, 05:41 PM) [snapback]1265967[/snapback]</div>

Three original helmets were made. That's it.

Ask Elstree where that mask came from.

[/b]

I have asked them already, Thomas...May I ask who told you that there were three original helmets made for the production?

Thomas

 

[SithLord]

<div class='quotetop'>(RKW @ Jun 23 2006, 02:59 AM) [snapback]1266466[/snapback]</div>

There in lies the problem SL. You have a history of being irresponsible by confusing your opinion with fact so what is it to be this time? Is it your opinion that this helmet is not original or fact? You can't keep claiming facts only to be found wrong later leaving a mess behind you. If your saying it's fact then you have a responsibility to prove it.
[/b]

Please elaborate on this "history of confusion" you refer to. What I see is your own confusion about what the facts are and your meager attempts at collecting information.

It's a fact. Live with it.

 

[RKW]

<div class='quotetop'>(SithLord @ Jun 23 2006, 09:11 AM) [snapback]1266478[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>(RKW @ Jun 23 2006, 02:59 AM) [snapback]1266466[/snapback]

There in lies the problem SL. You have a history of being irresponsible by confusing your opinion with fact so what is it to be this time? Is it your opinion that this helmet is not original or fact? You can't keep claiming facts only to be found wrong later leaving a mess behind you. If your saying it's fact then you have a responsibility to prove it.
[/b]

Please elaborate on this "history of confusion" you refer to. What I see is your own confusion about what the facts are and your meager attempts at collecting information.

It's a fact. Live with it.
[/b][/quote]

Too right I'm confused, and you're not helping.

In the short time I've encountered you in discussions there has been

1) The four Vader helmets
2) The 13 Tour Suits
3) The denial of an ANH helmet at LFL
4) Details on the GH helmet that you suggested existed on the real helmet.
5) Now there's doubt on the colour of the lenses.

I'm sure others could list more.

 

[cking]

I thought this thread was about the Elstree Vader helmet, not SithLord.

Getting back on track - I would LOVE to think that this helmet is the real deal. However, NOBODY has convinced me that it is OR isn't yet.

Speaking about my personal experience with Paul at Elstree, there's no doubt that he DOES have access to a lot of authentic items and his Dad certainly worked on the films as they prove on the website.

Without absolute provenance, I personally think it's impossible to say "It IS real" or "It ISN'T real".

Chris

 

[RKW]

<div class='quotetop'>(cking @ Jun 23 2006, 09:27 AM) [snapback]1266482[/snapback]</div>

I thought this thread was about the Elstree Vader helmet, not SithLord.

Getting back on track - I would LOVE to think that this helmet is the real deal. However, NOBODY has convinced me that it is OR isn't yet.

Speaking about my personal experience with Paul at Elstree, there's no doubt that he DOES have access to a lot of authentic items and his Dad certainly worked on the films as they prove on the website.

Without absolute provenance, I personally think it's impossible to say "It IS real" or "It ISN'T real".

Chris
[/b]

So what do we mean by the real deal? Do you mean you would like to think it's the actual screen used ANH helmet?

 

[cking]

"Real deal" to me would be one of the helmets that Prowse actually wore on set. I also think that a helmet out of the original mold, made at the same time, painted and completed by the same people who made the Prowse worn helmet would be considered "real deal" even if it didn't end up getting used on screen.

Anything other than something which came from the original mold would not be considered "real deal", at least as far as my personal opinion is concerned.

Chris

 

[SithLord]

<div class='quotetop'>(cking @ Jun 23 2006, 04:27 AM) [snapback]1266482[/snapback]</div>

I thought this thread was about the Elstree Vader helmet, not SithLord.

Getting back on track - I would LOVE to think that this helmet is the real deal. However, NOBODY has convinced me that it is OR isn't yet.

Speaking about my personal experience with Paul at Elstree, there's no doubt that he DOES have access to a lot of authentic items and his Dad certainly worked on the films as they prove on the website.

Without absolute provenance, I personally think it's impossible to say "It IS real" or "It ISN'T real".

Chris
[/b]

It cannot be real, meaning an original helmet from the original mold from the 1976 production of Star Wars, A New Hope. I also have personal experience with Paul at Elstree. I would not for a moment question their role in the films, nor that he has access to props, but not to an original Vader helmet from Star Wars: A New Hope. Not this one.

I am curious whether his dad worked on ANH? I know he lathed sabers for ROTJ. Who made the sabers for ANH?

I hope to see better photos of it, but that will not change my mind.

 

[yakcam]

Well, although I'd like to think it's the real deal, all I see is the flat brow (those things that overhang his eyes). To me, and believe me I'm no expert, don't look right.

Just my 2 cents

I do, however wish it was the real deal, but, well...........

Cheers,

Kraig

 

[RKW]

SL, what do you want us to look at in that pic?

 

[vaderdarth]

RKW, no offense, but I've got problems with all but one thing you put on your list concerning confusion with SL. Most of the stuff you have listed is still quite valid in terms of what is known at this point. It's quite possible that you just aren't privy to some of the details personally and this is understandable. Others are privy to it and regardless of what the props community believes as a whole.........they aren't always correct in these beliefs. I say that with respect and admiration for those individuals who dig dig dig to find out all these tidbits in our hobby. But we have made lots of mistakes over the years and we have corrected each one as new, better information has become available. Attacking a member over points you might not know enough about is silly and damaging to the hobby. You appear to keep trying to make this a personal tirade against SL. Let's stick to this helmet in this topic for now.

Getting back to the Elstree thing..........we still don't have a bunch of information/photos of the helmet and I still think I see a few things that are just "wrong" on these photos that we do have. I won't bother explaining what I mean until I get some clear pics of the thing. So far I just see a smoke screen and an intentional attempt to hide pertinent details that are already widely known in the vader prop community. I don't see the need to do this since the info is already out there. Just sounds like another coverup to me. Without trying to just make more pointless accusations about the claims surrounding this helmet.........I'd simply like to have more information personally. I won't go on the record and say the author of the claims is lying..........but I will say the author is "going to great lengths" to convince me that something is still fishy. There are too many contradictions in the information given thus far....both in terms of photos and history.

Peace,



Edit: Oh and by the way, if you just compare that very behind the scenes pic of the facemask with that photo provided of the elstree helmet..............there are at least 3 HUGE details that are Extremely different between the two facemasks. Let's see how many vader folks can spot them. I'll give you a tiny hint.........at least two of the details are near the eyes.......the other near the mouth.

 

[SithLord]

Not that my opinion really counts for anything but I've studied the mask at higher resolution (much higher than I'm showing here) and compared it with the 20th Century faceplate....I'm nearly 90% confident that the Elstree mask came from a 20th Century faceplate. All it will take are a couple of measurements to be certain. Yakcam, you were right about the eyebrows...the front surfaces are too flat...very good call. The lower eye edge on Vader's right is not like the screen original...more like the ESB movie poster faceplate and the 20th C. The neckline is also incorrect and the rear curvature of the neck like the 20th C. I agree with Vaderdarth that of course more photos/info would be helpful at least in determining where the mask came from.

EDIT: here's an example of what I mean. The u-shaped part of the nose on the Elstree mask makes a clear obtuse-angled transition on Vader's right side where it meets the side of the mouth. On the original, there's a bit more of an indentation there in that the transition isn't a smooth angle. Also, the width of the u-shaped part of the nose on the Elstree matches the width (proportionally) of that part of the nose on the 20th Century faceplate, both of which do not match the asymmetrical thickness seen on the original. The Elstree is also missing the three large notches on the second tooth from Vader's right...remnants are there...but remnants matching those of the 20th C.

 

[RKW]

So are you suggesting that DJ's helmet is also from the 20thC?

 

[SithLord]

<div class='quotetop'>(RKW @ Jun 23 2006, 06:06 AM) [snapback]1266503[/snapback]</div>

So are you suggesting that DJ's helmet is also from the 20thC?

[/b]

Well it's not from the original mold...it's closer to the ESB movie poster helmet. And DJ's has that thicker right edge....unlike many 20th C recasts.... . I think the DJ is the closest to the original ANH...but it's not directly from an original ANH....

EDIt:

It's missing or has virtually no notch on the left side of the second tooth....similar to what we see on later helmet versions like the ESB (20th C)...also again compare the right side of the u-shaped part of the nose...thicker on the DJ than the Elstree.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Anybody got any more pictures of this thing that they are willing and at liberty to share? Love the info too... very exciting. Would love to know more.

 

[RKW]

There is no way from these initial pics that you are going to be able to see any dents on the teeth which is why we need better photos before making any rash decisions. I don't believe you will find that area I indicated with the red arrow on the 20thC. My point though was that you believe 90% that the Elstree helmet is from the 20thC yet I have shown a comparison of the mouth with the DJ helmet that looks identical in my eyes considering the differences in angles. So can you really be 90% certain it's from the 20thC?

 

[PantheraGem]

<div class='quotetop'>(RKW @ Jun 22 2006, 03:00 PM) [snapback]1266171[/snapback]</div>

In regards to those tabs, they are not from the helmet but tabs that PnatheraGem discovered. The pattern is the same as the originals it's just the overall width that's different.
[/b]

Not to backtrack, but I just wanted to clarify that the tabs I showed are 35 years old. I just though in ANH maybe they used a trimmed (cut) down version of something very similar. Just figured they might be interesting to see at least.

 

[SithLord]

<div class='quotetop'>(PnatheraGem @ Jun 23 2006, 07:40 AM) [snapback]1266530[/snapback]</div>

Not to backtrack, but I just wanted to clarify that the tabs I showed are 35 years old. I just though in ANH maybe they used a trimmed (cut) down version of something very similar. Just figured they might be interesting to see at least.
[/b]

Interesting if they are that old...they would then pre-date the ones used on the helmets, I'm curious if they are from the same company...the pattern of knobs might be an indication...I could check...they could be the ancestors of the original tabs