Recasting - what can I do ????

But reproduce a patch,sticker or T-shirt without their permission bearing the 501st logo and see them come out of the woodwork to protect "their" item.

Including the letters TK :lol
Number of years ago i joined a costuming site(non 501st) and some members were calling themselves TK blah blah numbers blah and along comes one of the garrisons staff members i shan't name names but they all but demanded people stop doing this.
 
i feel recasting is very bad. some really talented people spend months researching, sculpting, molding , and casting a new prop all out of their pocket before they sell anything. most do not actively try to sell them either. they build the prop for thier personal costume and other people like what they are doing and want one.

[...]

the recaster did not spend the time or the money to bring that prop to life , he just stole all the time and hardwork the prop maker put in to that prop.


this is the part that's always confused me, and is why i don't mind if people recast me.

i made this:

Toon3rexfront.jpg


because i wanted one and nothing was available. scifire g2 hadn't made their project public yet, kwdesigns hadn't shared his, so i figured "why not just do it myself?"

i started off with a hasbro voice changer. as you can see, there's nothing really left of that hasbro, but it gave me a base to start on. the build for this has been documented heavily here:

http://www.stormtrooperguy.com/workshop/Clone_Helmets

but anyway, i spent a lot of time and money getting it as "right" as i'm capable of. 3 different revisions to the sculpt and 5 total mold revisions. i'm sure you all know how much silicone costs, so the math is easy.

so now someone gets one and recasts it. so what? i still have my sculpt, my mold, and the ability to make helmets for myself and my friends until i pass out. how does that recasting actually hurt me at all? i still got done what i wanted to get done.

that's the part i don't get... yeah, it's rude, it's disrespectful... but at the end of the day, why does that actually matter? let people be rude. who cares? i do my thing, they do theirs, and we all live happily ever after.

i don't understand why there's such a sort of macho "defending the turf" attitude toward it. people have been copying each others work without permission for as long as their has been art... what do i care if someone wants to ride my coat tails a bit?

my solution to it was to just let anyone that wants to recast my helmet and just not sweat it :)
 
[...]




this is the part that's always confused me, and is why i don't mind if people recast me.

i made this:

Toon3rexfront.jpg


because i wanted one and nothing was available. scifire g2 hadn't made their project public yet, kwdesigns hadn't shared his, so i figured "why not just do it myself?"

i started off with a hasbro voice changer. as you can see, there's nothing really left of that hasbro, but it gave me a base to start on. the build for this has been documented heavily here:

http://www.stormtrooperguy.com/workshop/Clone_Helmets

but anyway, i spent a lot of time and money getting it as "right" as i'm capable of. 3 different revisions to the sculpt and 5 total mold revisions. i'm sure you all know how much silicone costs, so the math is easy.

so now someone gets one and recasts it. so what? i still have my sculpt, my mold, and the ability to make helmets for myself and my friends until i pass out. how does that recasting actually hurt me at all? i still got done what i wanted to get done.

that's the part i don't get... yeah, it's rude, it's disrespectful... but at the end of the day, why does that actually matter? let people be rude. who cares? i do my thing, they do theirs, and we all live happily ever after.

i don't understand why there's such a sort of macho "defending the turf" attitude toward it. people have been copying each others work without permission for as long as their has been art... what do i care if someone wants to ride my coat tails a bit?

my solution to it was to just let anyone that wants to recast my helmet and just not sweat it :)



Brian I commend you for doing what you do but its your choice to allow people to copy your stuff.Most prop makers for whatever reason do not like or allow their stuff to be copied and thats their decision.
And Like I respect the fact that you allow it you have to respect the fact most dont allow it,whether you agree with it or not.
 
Brian I commend you for doing what you do but its your choice to allow people to copy your stuff.Most prop makers for whatever reason do not like or allow their stuff to be copied and thats their decision.
And Like I respect the fact that you allow it you have to respect the fact most dont allow it,whether you agree with it or not.

It's not a question of respect -- I do respect it in as much as I wouldn't copy someone else's work without permission.

I just really, honestly don't understand WHY it's such a big deal, and have never been able to get anyone to even engage in a conversation more complex than "just because".

I've been trying for years now to get someone to explain to me what injury, other than lost sale of copies, comes from recasting.

I can't see anything myself, and no-one has been able to tell me.

This conversation always gets so heated and emotional... It's always "if you're not with me then you're my enemy" and never just a conversation.

Pride? Recognition? Prestige? That's what I'm trying to understand. Not like anyone owes me an explanation, but I know that personally I'd be much more likely to be supportive of anti-recasting action if I felt like there was something behind it that I agreed with personally.
 
No to belabor the point, but:

DesTROYer:

The Prop community has not even beenable to come up with a clear definition of what Recasting is, and until they do, and until the Legion adopts a Anti-recasting policy threads of this nature will be closed.

And...

Council Resolution 1: Legion's Stance on Recasting
Vote completed on 03/13/2006: 35 Yes; 10 No; 3 Abstain
Reference Link
Resolution: The 501st Legion does not condone, support, or encourage re-casting. It is, however, outside of the scope of this club's mission, charter, authority, jurisdiction, and purview to consume our time and energies as a volunteer organization in efforts to prosecute those who, of their own volition, choose to engage in re-casting.


How difficult is it to understand....and it just states as well that the 501st won't prosecute those. But that means the 501st command. There is nothing to stop individual garrisons from making an independent decision to oust someone for recasting, which goes against the Legion's official stance.

Either the Legion condones it, supports it and encourages recasting or it doesn't. The official resolution was that it does not. So? What is so difficult for the members to grasp?
 
Will the 501st allow members to wear licensed Trooper suits such as the ones Rubies was offering without modification?
 
It's not a question of respect -- I do respect it in as much as I wouldn't copy someone else's work without permission.

I just really, honestly don't understand WHY it's such a big deal, and have never been able to get anyone to even engage in a conversation more complex than "just because".

I've been trying for years now to get someone to explain to me what injury, other than lost sale of copies, comes from recasting.

I can't see anything myself, and no-one has been able to tell me.

As you already said it's loss of sales for you, but it's also someone else profiting from your work. It's theft plain and simple. Think of all the hours and supplies you put into making your helmet. If someone recasts it they have very little invested and profit greatly.
Stealing is wrong - it's a simple concept.
 

So the 501st won't let you wear licensed stuff, they encourage you to wear recasts of well....bootleg stuff, and Lucas is so cool with that he flies them in to march in the Rose Bowl parade, includes them in books and movies and makes action figures?

I'm confused.
 
So the 501st won't let you wear licensed stuff, they encourage you to wear recasts of well....bootleg stuff, and Lucas is so cool with that he flies them in to march in the Rose Bowl parade, includes them in books and movies and makes action figures?

I'm confused.

Irony. I enjoyed being in the RBP though. :love

GL apprecaites the charity work and doesnt really care about people recasting recast of recast TK armor.
 
You'd think so but, alas, no.


Oh, i know people out there get it. Problem is, there are some people that dont have the money for the original and will go for the recast. Recasters know this, so they prey on the "ends justify the means" mentality.

To answer Brians question about why i care if i get something of mine recast. I care because i put hours upon hours of man time into all of my projects To make sure i get them as accurate as possible. Not to mention lots of money invested and most importantly, time not spent with my family. I dont do this for "greed" as some people have said. I do it because i love building props and at the same time, i have bills that need to get paid. The extra income that i get from the few sales that i have helps me support my family. In these economic times, i cant see where anyone would fault me for that or the fact that i get upset when i see the lax attitude most of the 501st has on recasting. Brian, you may be in a better financial situation than i, and that is the reason you dont care if you get recast, i dont know, but i hope you see where i and other prop makers may be coming from now.

When the opposition pulls out the IP card out on me or any other prop maker. Theyre right, i dont have the IP rights to what i make, but its MY interpretation of something ive seen on screen and unless ive given someone permission to copy it, it is unethical for them to do so. It is essentially stealing my art work. Speaking of "stealing", there is a written rule in the 501st charter about one member stealing from another, but in their eyes..... well, im sure you all read the quote i posted from Albin Johnson.
 
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It's not a question of respect -- I do respect it in as much as I wouldn't copy someone else's work without permission.

I just really, honestly don't understand WHY it's such a big deal, and have never been able to get anyone to even engage in a conversation more complex than "just because".

I've been trying for years now to get someone to explain to me what injury, other than lost sale of copies, comes from recasting.

I can't see anything myself, and no-one has been able to tell me.

This conversation always gets so heated and emotional... It's always "if you're not with me then you're my enemy" and never just a conversation.

Pride? Recognition? Prestige? That's what I'm trying to understand. Not like anyone owes me an explanation, but I know that personally I'd be much more likely to be supportive of anti-recasting action if I felt like there was something behind it that I agreed with personally.

**************************************************

TK:
I can understand the confusion, as it can be a somewhat subtle ethical question. Let me try to suggest an answer.
If one takes IP as the sole factor in the discussion, then yes, all would be in similar ethical water. But, it's not the sole factor, is it? It's a bit more complicated than that. As a member here at RPF, one can see the effort put into this hobby, the hours-upon-hours of research, sculpting, and all-out skill and sweat put toward producing original interpretations of pieces, made as accurate as possible. Things not possible without that effort. One only need look around this site to see the ART produced.
Recasters produce Craft. Items like the old paint-by-numbers kits, perhaps using skill to copy, but not to research. No effort.
Propmakers produce Art. Original interpretations of pieces (like ST armour) that were produced with skullsweat and skill, and not a little artistry.
Other Art pieces are judged by materials, artistic technique, interpretation, skill, format, etc. Prop aficionados use those criteria, and also Accuracy. It's an interpretation of another piece of art. Andy Worhol used a Campbell's Soup can in one of his famous art prints. If someone were to have copied that print and sold it for 20% lower than the original print sold for, I'd think he would have been justified in being upset, IP issues or not.
(Another way to look at it: there are literally tens of thousands, if not more, works of fan fiction in existence, in print, on websites, etc. Would it be acceptable for someone to copy the plot, original characters, or actual text because "it's based one someone else's Intellectual Property, and so not copywrited"? If not, what is different about the prop issue versus the fanfic issue?)
There is an effort issue here. There is also a pride issue: Propmakers putting in countless hours away from family and friends to pursue a hobby they love, who want and deserve the pats on the back for their work. Work not done by others.
AS to the money issue: of course propmakers want to be compensated for their time and effort. They work hard and take time from other important things to produce the most beautiful and accurate pieces possible, and some would not be able to do so without some compensation of lost income.
The recasters take some of this compensation, and the recognition of good work, away. This might drive some of the great propmakers away from this hobby, and that loss, the loss of their skill and insight, hurts us all.
I hope this goes some way toward answering your questions. I would be happy to continue this civil discussion, TK. If you have any other thoughts, feel free to PM. Thank you for asking your question reasonably, and avoiding rhetoric. I think everyone here appreciates a rational discussion, myself included.

Tahlen
 
A suggestion to all propmakers who find themselves plagued with recasters in the shadows:
I had a thought while writing the previous post, which some might find interesting, and others might find, well, wacky.
The recasters might be gently categorised in two general groups, not necessarily distinct nor the only groups existing:
A. Those who wish to produce a product in a demand market (i.e., stormtrooper hopefuls) for as low a cost as possible; and
B. Those who want to make money with minimal effort. The following suggestion might thin the herd a bit.
IF we assume that recasting is inevitable for in-demand items such as ST armour, and we assume that the loss of income is not the only reason this is offensive, then there is a simple, market driven answer:
authorize your own recasters.
Create knock-off copies of your own molds/parts, either yourself or with another prop hobbyist you trust. They should have less complete detail (as would a recaster's mold, because to re-detail their molds would take labor, which would defeat their purposes), and in general be a "lite" version of your original prop (e.g., armour pieces based on your own molds, but with less detail, less sharp, but size/dimension/general quality-wise your own work), and produce them at a lower cost. Sell them for less than the other recasters of your work, even if this thins your margins a bit, and undercut their market. "It's lower quality than the full-priced option," you will say, "but it is as good as <recaster>'s product, and at a lower cost."
What's that, you say? You want the most accurate armour available? Well, step right over here, I've got that, too...:lol
Those prop makers who can't carry the time commitment themselves can have their "authorised recaster" produce the work, and split what profits there are, or just get the credit for the work. In either case, you keep some sort of sales, and cut out the recasters who don't acknowledge your work. The type-A recasters will be satisfied that the members they are trying to serve will get their lower cost pieces, and the type-B recasters will dry up (well, some of them will).
In either case, any conflict in theoretical garrisons with "captive audiences" (e.g., "buy armour from <x> or you can't join") regarding your new line of work could only put the Recasting issue in sharp relief, front and center.

Anyway, just a wild idea. LIke I said, could be genius, or madness...
If anyone tries this, let me, let us all, know how it goes.
 
Irony. I enjoyed being in the RBP though. :love

GL apprecaites the charity work and doesnt really care about people recasting recast of recast TK armor.

Not to mention the free PR and the fact he doesn't have to provide costumes for several hundred actors and pay them to do these marches.
 
Years ago I used to rebuild speakers, and occassionally build custom speakers to sell. It was more of a hobby than business, and I never really intended to make much money at it. I'll share with you a little wisdom that was passed along to me about the nature business: Until you are an established company that has the clout to charge a price sufficient to encompass the extended costs plus profit, YOUR EFFORT IS COMPLETELY WITHOUT VALUE.

The truth of the matter is you can't really expect anyone to pay you much more that the cost of the materials (of the item) plus the manhours necessary to create it (think minimum wage). If someone does pay more, more power to ya, but it's not a given that you should or will get it.

That's where recasters have the advantage. They can price a product at about what it should be, versus the price based on some artistic effort driven sense of entitlement.

Have I ever been overpaid for my artistic efforts? You betcha, but I always feel like I'm ripping them off somehow. It's probably why I often let my customers set the price (and even then, it's often embarassingly high).
 
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The truth of the matter is you can't really expect anyone to pay you much more that the cost of the materials (of the item) plus the manhours necessary to create it (think minimum wage). If someone does pay more, more power to ya, but it's not a given that you should or will get it.

That's a terrible way to do business for a company of any size, even an individual.
You have to figure in development costs or you'd go broke.
You might not make all development costs up in the very beginning, but you should plan to over the run of the product.
 
Years ago I used to rebuild speakers, and occassionally build custom speakers to sell. It was more of a hobby than business, and I never really intended to make much money at it. I'll share with you a little wisdom that was passed along to me about the nature business: Until you are an established company that has the clout to charge a price sufficient to encompass the extended costs plus profit, YOUR EFFORT IS COMPLETELY WITHOUT VALUE.

The truth of the matter is you can't really expect anyone to pay you much more that the cost of the materials (of the item) plus the manhours necessary to create it (think minimum wage). If someone does pay more, more power to ya, but it's not a given that you should or will get it.

That's where recasters have the advantage. They can price a product at about what it should be, versus the price based on some artistic effort driven sense of entitlement.

Have I ever been overpaid for my artistic efforts? You betcha, but I always feel like I'm ripping them off somehow. It's probably why I often let my customers set the price (and even then, it's often embarassingly high).

"..... YOUR EFFORT IS COMPLETELY WITHOUT VALUE."

Really? you can speak for yourself on that one bud. If thats the way you want to run you Hobby/side job, thats all you. Everybodys time and effort has value regardless of how small time they are. If people like the work that you put out, then they will pay the price you ask. If you ask to much, well, that will reflect in your sales. I know that i and many other prop makers on this board pour their heart and souls into making their props. That alone, has worth.

Youre right, recasters do have an advantage. they dont have to spend time and money researching a subject to then spend a few months sculpting it into reality. All they have to do is copy someone elses work and sell it as their own. It would be no different than me making a business out of hijacking Wal-mart trucks, and selling the stolen merchandise out of my house for cheap. Of course i can, i have no overhead! Does it make it ok for me to hijack Wal-mart trucks just because i am making certain items more affordable? No.
 
If you look at these from the perspective that they are art, not products, then I think it's easy to see why recasting is so vehemently opposed. I wouldn't buy a recast statue by an artist I enjoy, because I understand that buying a recast undermines the artist. The artist gets no financial incentive to continue producing and a flood of low-quality items reflects poorly on the artist and de-values the work. It takes a *lot* of skill to create something from scratch and that skill does have a cost associated with it. There is a reason why recasters don't create the item from scratch rather than recast - it is outside of their skill level and/or they don't want to invest that amount of effort. I wouldn't be suprised if some recasters started out by trying to make their own and swiftly learned that it's not as easy as it looks.

I guess my point is that this is an artistic activity and the sum is worth more than the parts. If anyone ever questions why they should value the work that went into creating a prop they should try to create one from scratch themselves. I suspect most people come out feeling that artists and professionals really *don't* overcharge like they originally thought (and hopefully a better understanding of the pride people take in the things they make).
 
Well there you go, the moderation strikes again. Locking the thread, and saying there is "no evidence" to support my claims.

Looks like he's got his hands in the pockets of those I was asking about... oh and he's a member here "DesTROYer8564" charming isn't it.

OK seeing that I have been brought into this here, but until now, by being told of this thread by a third party, not being privy to the topic, I would like to take this one time to reply.

No. 1, I am against recasting in all forms. I have only ever brought my props and armor of original sources.

No.2 on the 21st of July I introduced this ammendment for discussion to the Terror Australis Garrison Forum Code of Conduct
Jul 21 2009, 01:37 PM
IP: 124.168.47.165 | Post #1 |



Hace mucho tiempo, en una galaxia muy, muy lejana...
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Posts: 7,731
Name: Troy
State: VIC
501st Since: July 06
501st ID: 8564



Currently their is debate in the legion on Recasting and how the Legion should handle it.
The Legion stance is one on neither supporting, condoning or encouraging recasting. However if the members here would like us to take a more active roll in dissuading re-caster's at TAG I propose to introduce the following amendment to the TAG Code of Conduct.


If any member here at TAG have proof that items being openly sold on the forums by our board members or an outside source, are recast items, they are asked to let the CO, XO and COG know via PM or email and they will investigate the claim in a closed hearing forum. The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the defendant.
The hearing will be held in a private hearing forum only and not in the general or member only boards. If the accusation is found to be true, the command staff will then have that thread closed and ask that the recaster no longer advertise their goods on the TAG forum, with any breach being immediately removed and there posts in the for sale threads moderated permanently. Bringing up accusations of recasting on the general or member only forums will not be tolerated. Members who can not follow the due process will have all their posts moderated for a month for a first offence. For second and subsequent offences, the offending members will be suspended from forum interaction for two weeks for each breach.

Please feel free to discuss this amendment to the forum code of conduct here and offer suggestions and alterations as you see fit. After two weeks we will open the Code Of Conduct amendment to the Trooper membership for a vote. This vote will be open for one week.

Where it was discussed for two weeks, with the majority of my members asking it to be held off until the review of the Legions Stance on the subject was completed.

No. 3 I also brought it up with Legion council for discussion where it was decided that a clear indication of what was and what wasn't recasting, was to be formalised.

No. 4 The 501st Legion and by result the Terror Australis Garrison, are not recasting police. We are a costuming club. My responsibility as CO of TAG is to try and ensure that the day to day business of running the Garrison is as smooth as possible and that flare ups of flame wars are kept to a minimum.
FON turns up for the first time in three years and starts a thread which without any proof or reason, starts naming names of people he suspects of Recasting after apparently doing only 5 mins of research. The post in the way it was written was in breach of our forums code of conduct and was moderated. I sent FON a message explaining why, and less than an hour later he did the exact same thing. A second message was sent and he was warned. He is now on his final warning. There are ways to do things and ways just to piss off people. FON was only interested in the second.

I have never met Lauchlan and have nothing to do with him or his sales. he does not sell his goods through the TAG forums and if any sales do come his way, it is only via word of mouth from his local troopers and friends. As long as he keeps his sales off the TAG boards, I have no Legion beef with him, however I will not be recommending his work until I know for sure it is not recast, which he claims it isn't, he says he sculpted it himself using reference pictures and measurements. No one has shown me proof it is recast.

FON your a jerk and I've had enough of your crap and going from my PM and email inbox, so has the rest of the Garrison. Welcome to the banned list.
 
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