Emmiter Ideas
- Thread starter franz bolo
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franz bolo
Sr Member
Great job..
I'm glad to see this thread not disappearing..
FB
I'm glad to see this thread not disappearing..
FB
<div class='quotetop'>(Serafino @ Jul 27 2006, 10:25 PM) [snapback]1289264[/snapback]</div>
Serafino,
Thanks.
I think that the rubber washer/O-ring does most of the gripping, and the alignment is maintained by the metal washers. Actually, more than 2 metal washers could be used for more support.
ATL Kenobi
Mike D.
Serafino,
Thanks.
I think that the rubber washer/O-ring does most of the gripping, and the alignment is maintained by the metal washers. Actually, more than 2 metal washers could be used for more support.
ATL Kenobi
Mike D.
JunkSabers1138
Sr Member
WOW. Good job. Could this be how the real prop was assembled? Are there any good leads?
Serafino
Sr Member
The leads consist of the 'globs' at the top of the grenade stem just inside the balance pipe--solder or epoxy, take your pick--and the apparent reflective 'something' which can be seen deep inside the balance pipe in some scenes, which was discussed in detail around a year ago. That discussion (revolving around my photographic experiments with examples I machined or modified) culminated in the 'reflector' shape and location I posted at the beginning of this thread (not the whole 'adapter' shape). That's about it.
But my speculation is that the 'reflector' is so deep in there that there's not much room for epoxy to create a strong bond to the grenade stem, so I think it's very likely that solder was used at least for the bond to the stem.
Partway through production the top of the stem was cleaned and shows bright brass in the Cantina sequence and post-production photos--did the saber fall apart from being dropped, and was it then repaired in a way that required the stem to be cleaned to bright brass? What's the more likely candidate in that case, solder or epoxy?
But my speculation is that the 'reflector' is so deep in there that there's not much room for epoxy to create a strong bond to the grenade stem, so I think it's very likely that solder was used at least for the bond to the stem.
Partway through production the top of the stem was cleaned and shows bright brass in the Cantina sequence and post-production photos--did the saber fall apart from being dropped, and was it then repaired in a way that required the stem to be cleaned to bright brass? What's the more likely candidate in that case, solder or epoxy?
Killdozer
Active Member
Both work best on bare metal, in my experience. However, epoxy is more likely to be in use to cover a larger area, I would think.
There's also the possibility (however remote) of two grenades in use. There's something about the officialpix grenade... the resolution is poor, but it looks so pitted in comparison to the clean, sharp-edged pineapple in the chronicles/mechanismo photos. More like the "prototype" grenade, IMO.
KD
There's also the possibility (however remote) of two grenades in use. There's something about the officialpix grenade... the resolution is poor, but it looks so pitted in comparison to the clean, sharp-edged pineapple in the chronicles/mechanismo photos. More like the "prototype" grenade, IMO.
KD
JunkSabers1138
Sr Member
I agree with two sabers in use as well.
And congradulations Howard on your 2,000 post milestone.
And congradulations Howard on your 2,000 post milestone.
Serafino
Sr Member
<div class='quotetop'>(JunkSabers1138 @ Jul 31 2006, 12:27 PM) [snapback]1291346[/snapback]</div>
That would be a break in the chain of argument for notches. :angel
I'm looking forward to some working-out of this issue. The apparent odd features of the OfficialPix grenade don't resolve into anything sensible so it's hard to make them into an argument for anything, but on the other hand I haven't yet been able to match wear features between that saber and the Chronicles pics.
FWIW Killdozer I think one can re-glue a failed epoxy joint without significant cleanup of overpaint, whereas re-doing a solder joint would require more cleanup.
That would be a break in the chain of argument for notches. :angel
I'm looking forward to some working-out of this issue. The apparent odd features of the OfficialPix grenade don't resolve into anything sensible so it's hard to make them into an argument for anything, but on the other hand I haven't yet been able to match wear features between that saber and the Chronicles pics.
FWIW Killdozer I think one can re-glue a failed epoxy joint without significant cleanup of overpaint, whereas re-doing a solder joint would require more cleanup.
<div class='quotetop'>(Serafino @ Jul 31 2006, 01:25 AM) [snapback]1291046[/snapback]</div>
Serafino,
I think it's solder. The picture shows 3 solder blobs on a stainless steel washer (The brown stuff is flux). As you know, unless certain metals (aluminum, stainless, inconel
) are properly prepared, solder just won't stick to it, and will tend to just ball up and form blobs. After the picture was taken, I intentionally dropped the washer on a hard surface, and all 3 blobs popped right off.
As mentioned, the stem was cleaned, which is a necessary step for a good solder connection, and brass takes solder very well. I suspect that the repair folks had/used some kind of flat washer, brass or steel, as an interface between the No.3 and the interconnector. The washer probably soldered easily to the neck. To solder the interconnector to the (theoretical) washer, they would have applied a large soldering iron to the outside of the inner sleeve and then applied the solder to the washer/interconnector joint. I believe this would have left the blobs seen in the mechanismo picture. I'm thinking that all that was holding the interconnector to the prop was the flux.
IMHO
OK-slightly off topic. Perhaps this is something that's been discussed before, but, in this picture, is the wind vane not screwed all the way on?
ATL Kenobi
Serafino,
I think it's solder. The picture shows 3 solder blobs on a stainless steel washer (The brown stuff is flux). As you know, unless certain metals (aluminum, stainless, inconel
) are properly prepared, solder just won't stick to it, and will tend to just ball up and form blobs. After the picture was taken, I intentionally dropped the washer on a hard surface, and all 3 blobs popped right off.As mentioned, the stem was cleaned, which is a necessary step for a good solder connection, and brass takes solder very well. I suspect that the repair folks had/used some kind of flat washer, brass or steel, as an interface between the No.3 and the interconnector. The washer probably soldered easily to the neck. To solder the interconnector to the (theoretical) washer, they would have applied a large soldering iron to the outside of the inner sleeve and then applied the solder to the washer/interconnector joint. I believe this would have left the blobs seen in the mechanismo picture. I'm thinking that all that was holding the interconnector to the prop was the flux.
IMHO
OK-slightly off topic. Perhaps this is something that's been discussed before, but, in this picture, is the wind vane not screwed all the way on?
ATL Kenobi
Serafino
Sr Member
<div class='quotetop'>(ATL Kenobi @ Jul 31 2006, 06:29 PM) [snapback]1291565[/snapback]</div>
Quite right. It varies in position in different shots. Since it is reasonable to assume it would not have been left to spin around and rattle, it would be interesting to track the changes in its position through the various pictures, as that may cast an interesting light on the other changes.
About the 'balling up' effect. This is one of the ambiguous aspects of the 'blobs'--people who know how solder works don't generally try to use it as a gap-filler, and it almost looks like whatever was used here was used as a gap-filler.
We haven't mentioned brazing, which is if anything an even stronger candidate.
Quite right.
It varies in position in different shots. Since it is reasonable to assume it would not have been left to spin around and rattle, it would be interesting to track the changes in its position through the various pictures, as that may cast an interesting light on the other changes.About the 'balling up' effect. This is one of the ambiguous aspects of the 'blobs'--people who know how solder works don't generally try to use it as a gap-filler, and it almost looks like whatever was used here was used as a gap-filler.
We haven't mentioned brazing, which is if anything an even stronger candidate.
Killdozer
Active Member
Just examining some parts this morning, and looking at the Death Star screencaps...
Seems to me that the threaded portion of the booster's "ring of holes" part would fit inside the balance pipe... if the threading itself was filed down.
Furthermore, I think there may be evidence in the 3/4 Chronicles photo of a lip much like the end face of the booster 2nd part. The screencaps aren't sufficiently clear to be able to tell, although the bright chrome-y reflection is what got me thinking.
If everything was held together with a dowel, there would be pressure-fit points at the pommel, the booster (if the nut and part of the threading was left intact), the grenade stem and at the balance pipe.
Naturally, this would mean destroying a booster and preventing further use by Bapty-- something it's understood happened. Maybe it was stripped already. We must also consider-- what would be easier? A custom machined piece, or something (already ruined?) in a box?
KD
edit: The C/M photo, which makes the connection look rounded (ie, soldered), also made it look like the pommel/booster connection was a soft curve...
Seems to me that the threaded portion of the booster's "ring of holes" part would fit inside the balance pipe... if the threading itself was filed down.
Furthermore, I think there may be evidence in the 3/4 Chronicles photo of a lip much like the end face of the booster 2nd part. The screencaps aren't sufficiently clear to be able to tell, although the bright chrome-y reflection is what got me thinking.
If everything was held together with a dowel, there would be pressure-fit points at the pommel, the booster (if the nut and part of the threading was left intact), the grenade stem and at the balance pipe.
Naturally, this would mean destroying a booster and preventing further use by Bapty-- something it's understood happened. Maybe it was stripped already. We must also consider-- what would be easier? A custom machined piece, or something (already ruined?) in a box?
KD
edit: The C/M photo, which makes the connection look rounded (ie, soldered), also made it look like the pommel/booster connection was a soft curve...
Serafino
Sr Member
KD I also wondered about the plated 'cone' shapes in the booster proper (the 'ring of holes' piece is the actual booster, FWIW). I think the cone in the threaded end is too deep and narrow to be the 'reflector' in the prop emitter, my tests with various shapes indicated that a full-width reflector 'cone' with a shallower angle is most likely. I'll dig up my photos to illustrate this later today.
Also, the 'nut' end of the 'ring of holes/booster' piece doesn't make for an easy fit to a grenade stem, so it seems like there would be a lot of work involved in making that piece work for attachment.
I agree that they most likely didn't use a custom machined piece. But we need something to be the 'reflector', and few are going to be willing to experiment with epoxy or welding/brazing or solder, I think.
I'd be interested in your 'lip' evidence? Also I'm not clear on your dowel/pressure point idea? As I see it the booster was epoxied to the pommel--there is evidence of glue at the join, then the 'booster/bearing' part, which was wired to the clamp by the end of the film, but was not wired in Tunisia, and may have used the 'booster/ring of holes' part' as a clamp spacer, then the grenade, with 2 screws into it through the clamp by the end of production, then the 'blobs' which are not on the same level of non-resolution as the 'gear spacer'--the latter, by the way, looks just like it should, once you know what you're looking for.
Also, the 'nut' end of the 'ring of holes/booster' piece doesn't make for an easy fit to a grenade stem, so it seems like there would be a lot of work involved in making that piece work for attachment.
I agree that they most likely didn't use a custom machined piece. But we need something to be the 'reflector', and few are going to be willing to experiment with epoxy or welding/brazing or solder, I think.
I'd be interested in your 'lip' evidence? Also I'm not clear on your dowel/pressure point idea? As I see it the booster was epoxied to the pommel--there is evidence of glue at the join, then the 'booster/bearing' part, which was wired to the clamp by the end of the film, but was not wired in Tunisia, and may have used the 'booster/ring of holes' part' as a clamp spacer, then the grenade, with 2 screws into it through the clamp by the end of production, then the 'blobs' which are not on the same level of non-resolution as the 'gear spacer'--the latter, by the way, looks just like it should, once you know what you're looking for.
Serafino
Sr Member
Ok, this is a brief review of how things shaped up in the old 'reflector' thread.
I tried a bunch of different designs, trying to match what is seen in the movie. I ended up doing some tests to figure out what the depth of the 'thing' in there was:
This reflector design was too elongated, the top not deep enough, and it showed that the top ring on the grenade stem was probably not visible on the prop:
This is essentially the design I had at the end of the thread. This drawing shows the 'extreme' version which I think may be correct--requiring the stem to be cut down to get the full depth of the hole inside the emitter. Of course few will want to go this far, (and none will with real grenades I trust). So a slightly modified version would probably be what most people want, with room for a whole stem to go to the right depth, and the 'reflector' sides angled right to the hole.
This was a test of the S-5b design with the hole the same size as the hole in the stem.
Next is another test I did for lighting mostly--it shows the reflector not quite deep enough:
The 'S 5b' design harkens back to an early test I did with a modified reflector from a very old flashlight which was actually rather promising:
I tried a bunch of different designs, trying to match what is seen in the movie. I ended up doing some tests to figure out what the depth of the 'thing' in there was:
This reflector design was too elongated, the top not deep enough, and it showed that the top ring on the grenade stem was probably not visible on the prop:
This is essentially the design I had at the end of the thread. This drawing shows the 'extreme' version which I think may be correct--requiring the stem to be cut down to get the full depth of the hole inside the emitter. Of course few will want to go this far, (and none will with real grenades I trust). So a slightly modified version would probably be what most people want, with room for a whole stem to go to the right depth, and the 'reflector' sides angled right to the hole.
This was a test of the S-5b design with the hole the same size as the hole in the stem.
Next is another test I did for lighting mostly--it shows the reflector not quite deep enough:
The 'S 5b' design harkens back to an early test I did with a modified reflector from a very old flashlight which was actually rather promising:
Last edited:
Prometheus
Well-Known Member
bump
Prometheus
Well-Known Member
ATL's method in my opinion is very feasible and perhaps the best way to do it so far. However, maybe its just me but the thought of relying on washers makes me a little nervous. Perhaps its due to the fact that we are used to having custom machined emitters (which might not be entirely accurate at the time of production due to the lack of better evidence or pictures) that provide better and sturdier fittings. From looking at some pictures, i understand that the emitter on the real prop was pretty loose and was thinking if we can further improve on it. Its obvious from the desert pic that the prop makers had the same problem which we are about to face. The saber was lying on the ground with the emitter misaligned.
As we all know, this particular prop is pretty tricky as it is being 'strung' together using 5 major components.
AS wheel/booster assembly = pretty straight forward
booster/clamp/grenade assembly = we dont know whats underneath the clamp but a simple pipe will suffice
grenade stem/balance pipe assembly = definitely need a custom machined piece for the adapter but are there any other alternatives to using washers?
Just a thought
As we all know, this particular prop is pretty tricky as it is being 'strung' together using 5 major components.
AS wheel/booster assembly = pretty straight forward
booster/clamp/grenade assembly = we dont know whats underneath the clamp but a simple pipe will suffice
grenade stem/balance pipe assembly = definitely need a custom machined piece for the adapter but are there any other alternatives to using washers?
Just a thought
Serafino
Sr Member
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Boba Debt @ Dec 24 2006, 03:31 AM) [snapback]1383879[/snapback]</div>
It's true, the basic part shape is easy (I made a test piece and it was very straightforward). For those of us who don't mind using glue the whole problem doesn't really exist. For the rest, the issues are:
1. Getting it to stay in place, there are many who don't want to deal with glue or solder.
2. Attaching it to grenades of different stem diameters without blocking the hole through the stem.
Prometheus--I don't envision a washer system, but I think the o-ring idea has some promise, at least as a direction of thought.
I've also been thinking in terms of the principles of pressure-fittings such as used for refrigerants and Co2 systems, and also the way collets work.
But you should keep in mind that the prop makers were able to make this attachment work in a small space because they didn't mind using solder or glue.
You're asking for a way to create a detachable customizable (or at least available in different sizes) correct-looking attachment piece in that same small space without getting too complicated or expensive. It's a wee bit of a challenge, although I do still think it can be done.
It's true, the basic part shape is easy (I made a test piece and it was very straightforward). For those of us who don't mind using glue the whole problem doesn't really exist. For the rest, the issues are:
1. Getting it to stay in place, there are many who don't want to deal with glue or solder.
2. Attaching it to grenades of different stem diameters without blocking the hole through the stem.
Prometheus--I don't envision a washer system, but I think the o-ring idea has some promise, at least as a direction of thought.
I've also been thinking in terms of the principles of pressure-fittings such as used for refrigerants and Co2 systems, and also the way collets work.
But you should keep in mind that the prop makers were able to make this attachment work in a small space because they didn't mind using solder or glue.
You're asking for a way to create a detachable customizable (or at least available in different sizes) correct-looking attachment piece in that same small space without getting too complicated or expensive. It's a wee bit of a challenge, although I do still think it can be done.
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