R.P. McMurphy
Well-Known Member
Got in on this as well. My first Anovos purchase. Very excited!
ANOVOS issues (ANOVOS ONLY discussion)
- Thread starter Art Andrews
- Start date
Got Maul
Official Licensee
Thank you everyone for purchasing into the NEWLY DESIGNED, RPFer INSPIRED Tier system ! The results have been fantastic and am glad more people get to partake in a tier one exclusive.
The Snowtrooper is going to take a few months to produce because of its mixed media element (cloth and armor). I guarantee you though, this will be the most accurate offering to date. Moncal hit this one out of the park on this first prototype. I couldn't be happier with his incredible attention to detail. In conjunction with his sculpts, we are also making additional changes that I will post here, based from the hi-resolution 3D scans we took of the screen used pieces at Lucas Archives. I can't wait to share those with you as we march towards the best representation of the Snowtrooper ever offered by a licensee.
Also, a Belated Happy Holidays everyone !
The Snowtrooper is going to take a few months to produce because of its mixed media element (cloth and armor). I guarantee you though, this will be the most accurate offering to date. Moncal hit this one out of the park on this first prototype. I couldn't be happier with his incredible attention to detail. In conjunction with his sculpts, we are also making additional changes that I will post here, based from the hi-resolution 3D scans we took of the screen used pieces at Lucas Archives. I can't wait to share those with you as we march towards the best representation of the Snowtrooper ever offered by a licensee.
Also, a Belated Happy Holidays everyone !
tubachris85x
Master Member
The thing that I'm a little concerned about is that while I understand why you guys are consulting Cal for the suit (and using his kit for the "prototype" ) it's also been claimed that Anovos has access to the screen used suit that we've seen on tours with MoM and the like.
This is my opinion on this as the snowtrooper is something that I'm fairly passionate about, so please do not take any offense to what I may say. As the DL for the Blizzard Force, I am ecstatic that the snowies are getting some attention in this manner. It has already increased forum activity and I can't tell you how many new registrations I've seen this week alone following the official announcement.
That being said, I must be honest in this regard. It's been suggested that Anovos may ultimately base the final armor sculpts on Cal's armor. While I feel Cal's armor is good, why wouldn't Anovos create their own sculpts from the digitally scanned screen used costume? At the end of the day, if they decide to follow through using Cal's armor, what would be the point of it? While I understand the average consumer - those not in "the know" or a part of the 501st/costuming community won't recognize it, but the non-members or current looking to do this costume will (with some research) determine that this would essentially be a glorified moncal kit. I won't discuss the prices as that's not in Anovos's control etc, however, what you're going to see, if you haven't already, is the remarks of getting a MC kit for less, etc.
This leads to my next point....
Digitally scanned armor. It's been put into the description as it will be fact. What I've been told so far is far from this. Now, you guys are still in the R&D phase as far as I know. While Anovos has different goals in mind, I feel it would be better suited for them to create their own armor molds using this source. Why? Because NO one has that kind of information and access for Snowtrooper armor. You guys would be unique and stand out for that fact alone. To fall back on a fan-sculpt IMO while having such access from the archives to produce a better more accurate set, especially having claimed to have already digitally scanned the pieces, would be kinda disheartening especially if Anovos wants to make those kinda claims. It's the same BS that Rubies would feed about their helmets being "cast from movie molds" when it's clearly obvious it's not. Please don't do this here, not unless Anovos actually does it. I can pin-point a moncal helmet from across the room. Every snowtrooper kit has inaccuracies, even moncal's. It's not an "attack" on vendors, it's just factual.
To boot, producing armor molds from the digital scans/archive armor will probably increase your sales, because, as I said, no one has that. It's not like the TK's, fetts or vader components where people were able to acquire casts of helmets and armor with factual direct lineage to the screen used pieces or actual production molds. Not with the snowtrooper. What we've got is just reference images behind some glass from a display.
What's the point of going through the trouble of scanning the screen used components if you're going to just end up falling back on a fan-sculpt?
Darth Niob
Sr Member
Well said
Um... He just said, and you even quoted him:
I wanted to bold the relevant portions of that paragraph, but I'd've ended up bolding the entire paragraph.
Starting with MC's sculpts, which already exist in physical form, they are altering them using the hi-res 3D scans of the original pieces that they took in the Archives. Even the best 3D scan I've seen still has some "noise" that needs to be cleaned up before anything can be done with it. At times it can be easier to start with something you already have that's very close -- which MC's stuff is -- and tweak it here and there as necessary to match even a "dirty" 3D scan.The prototype is just that. As with the other ANOVOS offerings, until the actual finished piece is ready to roll some months hence, a placeholder shows roughly what they're going for. The TIE Pilot and Vader prototypes are mix'n'matches of fan-made stuff, just to show approximately what the finished pieces will be. ANOVOS is good at showing screen-used next to replica as they get to that point, to show how dead-on accurate the replicas are. Don't confuse the fact that a MC Snowie is being used as a place-holder for the also MC-made Archive-accurate sculpts underway now.
--Jonah
tubachris85x
Master Member
Um... He just said, and you even quoted him:
I wanted to bold the relevant portions of that paragraph, but I'd've ended up bolding the entire paragraph.
The prototype is just that. As with the other ANOVOS offerings, until the actual finished piece is ready to roll some months hence, a placeholder shows roughly what they're going for. The TIE Pilot and Vader prototypes are mix'n'matches of fan-made stuff, just to show approximately what the finished pieces will be. ANOVOS is good at showing screen-used next to replica as they get to that point, to show how dead-on accurate the replicas are. Don't confuse the fact that a MC Snowie is being used as a place-holder for the also MC-made Archive-accurate sculpts underway now.
--Jonah
I've been informed of the proposed alterations of his armor. The point of my post was ultimately say "be original" in the armor's creation.
I get that 3d scan's need clean up. I've seen the process before. It's still a viable base to build from. If this is ultimately the route they're going to take then I'm concerned how much they'll actually change to his sculpts. I'm not going to discredit Cal's work he's put into the armor, but just like some people have an eye for detail for Tk's, vader helmets, etc. here on the RPF, I don't see that many who do for the snowtrooper armor. When I put two different maker's helmets side by side and ask for a friend to tell me the differences, sometimes I'll get very basic obvious things but more often I get the "they're different?" It's the same kind of thing when people confuse a TIE figher pilot for a Vader, or in my case as a snowtrooper, I've been called the "white ranger."
Those are extreme commonalities but it's along the same lines. It's a matter of being able to see and understand the nuances of a piece. Me and Cal have our own differences with some details but we're both pretty stubborn or just hard-headed.
I've done side by side comparisons of vendor helmets and gave input to those who've asked before. I used the anovos helmet as it would seem to be the most recent construction of Cal's helmet. The photo angle is different but the annotations show what I see in comparison to the Auction helmet on the left.
The other side to it is I don't want to see a company label it as:
"Armor and hard pieces 3D scanned and replicated from artifacts."
If this is the case, then I hate to say it, this will be misleading. "Artifacts," in this context, imply the screen used pieces. If I was just another guy looking at costumes, and saw this, what would I think? I would think "this is created directly from 3d scans of the screen used suit."
I wouldn't think "3D scans used to modify existing fan made costume"
I'm not trying to be "that guy." I am completely supportive of Anovos, and only offer this as a critique to be constructive. I want this to be very much it's "own" creation which would in the long run make it that much more valuable because of it's origins. Much like the Don Post Vader that is coveted and sought after because it has direct history from a screen used helmet. That was a licensed piece after all.
Again, I am not trying to be a pain in the butt, I simply have a lot of care for this.
Got Maul
Official Licensee
Wow, I couldn't have said or restated it better than Jonah. Thanks !
To add more substance to the topic, someone like Moncal is able to provide a first prototype that gives us a basis. We get to choose which items truly need a rework and which ones stay through a combination of both Lucasfilm product development and our own archival research. We "discovered" this method in prototype development in our Star Trek and BSG work, in having something, is better than nothing and speeds up the developmental process by at least 30%. This allows us to communicate so much more efficiently with our overseas manufacturers, where pictures and words fail. Try explaining a "prop" to someone who has never been in our hobby. Even if it is an incorrect prop, putting something in someone's hand speaks a thousand words, which gets you to the next level, which is correcting and re-correcting a prototype. Yah dig ? From a business side, if the prototype is very close, we will post that for the pre-order and give folks an opportunity to participate in the sale at a good price and become part of the process for the final corrections to come.
Having said that and more apt to Tubachris' concerns, there are a few changes that we will be making that does include a lot of the research and 3D scans that we've created from the original pieces we studied and even brought in a professional pattern maker to draw from. We will be showing those here. While some changes are big, most are small compared to what we've seen. To quote Lucasfilm "it's amazing how close he got without this kind of [archival] reference" which is a real salute to Moncal's attention for detail. We've scanned in the original pieces and have some incredibly hi-rez 3D models of the armor pieces which has also resolved the original dents of the costume armor! We will be making changes which include Chest and backplate reprints, back pack resizing and helmet re-patterning to name a few and are actively in the works. There are some changes that I am sure you will agree with but I guarantee, some changes no one had any idea ! It is an exciting time.
The really cool thing is that because we're of all the same mindset, I don't mind sharing those changes here as we get the pieces in...(I don't get access to to the Snowtrooper board because I am not active 501st .....BUT, I have to get approvals from upstairs to share archival material, so please have patience with me.
To add more substance to the topic, someone like Moncal is able to provide a first prototype that gives us a basis. We get to choose which items truly need a rework and which ones stay through a combination of both Lucasfilm product development and our own archival research. We "discovered" this method in prototype development in our Star Trek and BSG work, in having something, is better than nothing and speeds up the developmental process by at least 30%. This allows us to communicate so much more efficiently with our overseas manufacturers, where pictures and words fail. Try explaining a "prop" to someone who has never been in our hobby. Even if it is an incorrect prop, putting something in someone's hand speaks a thousand words, which gets you to the next level, which is correcting and re-correcting a prototype. Yah dig ? From a business side, if the prototype is very close, we will post that for the pre-order and give folks an opportunity to participate in the sale at a good price and become part of the process for the final corrections to come.
Having said that and more apt to Tubachris' concerns, there are a few changes that we will be making that does include a lot of the research and 3D scans that we've created from the original pieces we studied and even brought in a professional pattern maker to draw from. We will be showing those here. While some changes are big, most are small compared to what we've seen. To quote Lucasfilm "it's amazing how close he got without this kind of [archival] reference" which is a real salute to Moncal's attention for detail. We've scanned in the original pieces and have some incredibly hi-rez 3D models of the armor pieces which has also resolved the original dents of the costume armor! We will be making changes which include Chest and backplate reprints, back pack resizing and helmet re-patterning to name a few and are actively in the works. There are some changes that I am sure you will agree with but I guarantee, some changes no one had any idea ! It is an exciting time.
The really cool thing is that because we're of all the same mindset, I don't mind sharing those changes here as we get the pieces in...(I don't get access to to the Snowtrooper board because I am not active 501st
.....BUT, I have to get approvals from upstairs to share archival material, so please have patience with me.
Got Maul
Official Licensee
Just an addendum to my last post, when I say 3D scan, I also imply we use those scans to 3D print as well. Being a prop builder and no stranger to resolution, the services we use to print are not your conventional printers, but someone much higher in resolution and largest format printing bed to be found in the industry. Coupled with one of the best 3D hand scanners on the market, we've been extremely satisfied with the output of 3D scanning and printing we've seen. This is not the case where we're just using archival scans as sculpting reference, we are using the actual data to print from !
tubachris85x
Master Member
Wow, I couldn't have said or restated it better than Jonah. Thanks !
To add more substance to the topic, someone like Moncal is able to provide a first prototype that gives us a basis. We get to choose which items truly need a rework and which ones stay through a combination of both Lucasfilm product development and our own archival research. We "discovered" this method in prototype development in our Star Trek and BSG work, in having something, is better than nothing and speeds up the developmental process by at least 30%. This allows us to communicate so much more efficiently with our overseas manufacturers, where pictures and words fail. Try explaining a "prop" to someone who has never been in our hobby. Even if it is an incorrect prop, putting something in someone's hand speaks a thousand words, which gets you to the next level, which is correcting and re-correcting a prototype. Yah dig ? From a business side, if the prototype is very close, we will post that for the pre-order and give folks an opportunity to participate in the sale at a good price and become part of the process for the final corrections to come.
Having said that and more apt to Tubachris' concerns, there are a few changes that we will be making that does include a lot of the research and 3D scans that we've created from the original pieces we studied and even brought in a professional pattern maker to draw from. We will be showing those here. While some changes are big, most are small compared to what we've seen. To quote Lucasfilm "it's amazing how close he got without this kind of [archival] reference" which is a real salute to Moncal's attention for detail. We've scanned in the original pieces and have some incredibly hi-rez 3D models of the armor pieces which has also resolved the original dents of the costume armor! We will be making changes which include Chest and backplate reprints, back pack resizing and helmet re-patterning to name a few and are actively in the works. There are some changes that I am sure you will agree with but I guarantee, some changes no one had any idea ! It is an exciting time.
The really cool thing is that because we're of all the same mindset, I don't mind sharing those changes here as we get the pieces in...(I don't get access to to the Snowtrooper board because I am not active 501st
I completely understand why. I'm not questioning the use of his products as a prototype. It's as you said; used to get a hands on idea of how to go about fabricating, assembling and painting the final product. There's no concern as to that process, so please don't feel as though I am knocking this part. Cal did his homework and has been pretty successful with his armor. I'm just more "critical" if that means anything.
I offered to Dean about sending Anovos a "found" item/greeblie for the chest. I haven't had a chance to compare Cal's piece to see, but it's small, and recently discovered item. Idk if that ever made it your way, but I have one left I could send, just as an FYI.
As for the Blizzard Force, you can register if you're not a member. If you need specific access just lmk..I run the boards after all!
I get where you're coming from now, Chris. I wouldn't worry. Ca's always been trying to mount the decimal places closer and closer to screen-accurate. He's always had to work with photo reference and, to be honest, the degree of accuracy he's been able to get with just that is pretty damn impressive. Having access to high-resolution scans of the original items, I cannot see him now opting to ignore his decades-long calling. Quite the opposite. He, at least, always likes having original greeblies to work from, as well. So maybe pop him a message about that directly, while the California team focus on mastering patterns and sourcing or replicating fabrics.
P.S. I've always liked Snowtroopers. It has not, however, been on my radar as a costume I want to tackle. This may change that... >_>
--Jonah
P.S. I've always liked Snowtroopers. It has not, however, been on my radar as a costume I want to tackle. This may change that... >_>
--Jonah
tubachris85x
Master Member
I get where you're coming from now, Chris. I wouldn't worry. Ca's always been trying to mount the decimal places closer and closer to screen-accurate. He's always had to work with photo reference and, to be honest, the degree of accuracy he's been able to get with just that is pretty damn impressive. Having access to high-resolution scans of the original items, I cannot see him now opting to ignore his decades-long calling. Quite the opposite. He, at least, always likes having original greeblies to work from, as well. So maybe pop him a message about that directly, while the California team focus on mastering patterns and sourcing or replicating fabrics.
P.S. I've always liked Snowtroopers. It has not, however, been on my radar as a costume I want to tackle. This may change that... >_>
--Jonah
He may already have the piece I am referencing. I had received a few of them and sent one to a few vendors to use for their kits as only until recently through one member had the piece finally been identified. Whether Cal had this knowledge already, I can't say, but I'm glad to have one piece figured. The only other mystery greeblie is the disk as seen in various props and sets throughout the OT. It's a small piece but elusive for so long
The three-button disk on the belt buckle?
tubachris85x
Master Member
That's the one we haven't identified yet
Yep. That's one of four that particularly confound me in defying identification. The other three are: specific make and model of panel clip used on the TIE Pilot forehead, specific make and model of hob gear cutter and mount used for spiky bit and emitter tip of the ROTJ Royal Guard force pike, and specific make and model of CB-style connector plug used for the "scope" thing on the Merr-Sonn blasters.
--Jonah
--Jonah
tubachris85x
Master Member
If you've got viable reference pics of the pieces, I enjoy trying to hunt things down.
My greatest achievement was not only identifying but actually finding an obscure moto-cross protective face mask used for the mortal kombat 3 character costume Sektor/Cyrax, which is used for their helmet. Only found one after 2 years of searching (after knowing what the model was mind you) and it came all the way from Hungary of all places. Haven't seen another since
ROTJ Royal Guard force pike spiky bit and emitter tip:
Probable combined unit. Do a Google image search for "worm wheel hob cutter" and you'll see some contemporary versions that look not a million miles from what's in the picture of the prop.
TIE Pilot forehead greeblies:
You can find this and many more pictures to reference here. I've looked at panel clips for every make and model of car that I know of as being available in the UK in 1976, and no matches. I don't know what besides cars may use panel-attaching clips like that.
Merr-Sonn "scope" piece:
From photoscaling I've determined its size to high degree of precision. From eyewitness accounts of at least one original in the Archives, it is a round 4-pin connector similar to the ones used for decades on CB and ham radio handsets:
Only the version on the blaster has a dimple in he center of the plug's face, and no threaded metal locking collar. Also, if this is the same piece as on this prototype blaster:
...then it has a brass shield around the plug body that's painted black along with the rest of the blaster.
And speaking of the Merr-Sonn reminded me of the two greeblies on he right side of the "Power 5" version's magazine:
Those have also defied identification, but are more easily scratch-buildable so I tend to forget about them.
Sorry for the thread sidetrack, even if it is tangentially related.
--Jonah
Probable combined unit. Do a Google image search for "worm wheel hob cutter" and you'll see some contemporary versions that look not a million miles from what's in the picture of the prop.
TIE Pilot forehead greeblies:
You can find this and many more pictures to reference here. I've looked at panel clips for every make and model of car that I know of as being available in the UK in 1976, and no matches. I don't know what besides cars may use panel-attaching clips like that.
Merr-Sonn "scope" piece:
From photoscaling I've determined its size to high degree of precision. From eyewitness accounts of at least one original in the Archives, it is a round 4-pin connector similar to the ones used for decades on CB and ham radio handsets:
Only the version on the blaster has a dimple in he center of the plug's face, and no threaded metal locking collar. Also, if this is the same piece as on this prototype blaster:
...then it has a brass shield around the plug body that's painted black along with the rest of the blaster.
And speaking of the Merr-Sonn reminded me of the two greeblies on he right side of the "Power 5" version's magazine:
Those have also defied identification, but are more easily scratch-buildable so I tend to forget about them.
Sorry for the thread sidetrack, even if it is tangentially related.
--Jonah
Bigturc
Sr Member
Wow .. that snowtrooper talk just made me so happy I ordered my set!!! Got Maul, what you guys are doing is above amazing .. your willingness to output the best out there is so refreshing and I'm happy to have pre-bought some of your products!!! Can't wait to see more details of where this is going!!! :thumbsup
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